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Author Topic: 2012 Elections  (Read 28436 times)

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Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,340
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #480 on: November 08, 2012, 08:41:48 PM »

There were rules in the bill governing how the districts could be drawn.  

Also, the commission would have been chosen by judges, not the legislature, which removes the conflict of interest of legislatures drawing up the districts that elect them and others they serve with.  And there were rules saying that if you held office, were a candidate for office, worked as a staffer for a politician, or were a paid lobbyist within X amount of years you were ineligible for the commission.  It would be pretty hard for party leadership to sneak a bunch of cronies into the commission as the legislature is pretty much entirely removed from the process.

So I think it was about as apolitical as you could possibly make it.  So much so that I think it would have been ruled unconstitutional.  

I do kind of get what you are saying though.  The problem with turning something that is inherently deeply political into something non-political is that you meet in the middle.  If judges have the power to choose who will draw up the districts, that impacts who gets chosen as judge.  And since the judicial system does a whole lot of other important things like send people to jail and crap, I wouldn't want the districting issue to impact who gets made judge and screw up all the REAL tasks of the judicial branch.

You can say that even the judges don't have that much say, as an effort has been made to remove them from too much control as well.  But I don't think that solves the problem.  Politicians are going to look for any edge they can find.  And if you make it really hard to find an edge, they'll work that much harder and not care about the collateral damage it causes along the way.

Then again, I don't buy the whole "keep it the legislature because if they re-district badly you vote them out" argument.  No, you can't vote them out because they just effectively disenfranchised you that's the whole point of gerrymandering.

I don't know.  It's a tough call.  Don't know whether I'd vote for it or not.  I think right now, I probably would but I don't know if I'd be all that psyched about it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 08:57:37 PM by Zafer Kaya »
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luisterpaul

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,120
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #481 on: November 08, 2012, 08:59:38 PM »

Well yeah.   ;D   No actually that's a bit of a cheapshot.
Cheap shot? Perhaps. Accurate assessment? You betcha.

Now that the election's over it's no longer about what Romney would or wouldn't have done in office. It's about the GOP in general. Roughly half of the Republicans I know are in fact sexist, racist, and homophobic. (I may live in a liberal state, but my workplace is predominantly Republican, and I hear shit that makes me cringe several times a week.) For the GOP to be more attractive to various non-white-male groups they have to pretend they're something they're not. They have to act as though they don't have a problem with immigrants, or gays, or whatever, because at their core they do.

At least, that's how it looks to me.
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Kwyjibo

  • Bringing Grumpy Back
  • City Elder
  • Posts: 10,540
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #482 on: November 08, 2012, 10:06:52 PM »


Cheap shot? Perhaps. Accurate assessment? You betcha.

Now that the election's over it's no longer about what Romney would or wouldn't have done in office. It's about the GOP in general. Roughly half of the Republicans I know are in fact sexist, racist, and homophobic.

Don't forget alarmist and fear-mongering....
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Baby, check this out, I've got something to say.  Man, it's so loud in here.

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,340
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #483 on: November 09, 2012, 01:08:14 AM »

I don't know about that. 

I know plenty of Republicans that aren't the least bit racist.  In fact I would say for some of them their greatest failing is that they are so not racist that they greatly underestimate the race problems in the US because it seems unfathomable to them there are that many racists around.  Or sometimes I might find them biased in that the only racism they see is reverse-racism because they are white and it impacts them.  While I find that super annoying, I wouldn't say any of them are racist in the sense that they personally hate black people or latinos. 

I suppose one of the odd things about being a minority is that I probably see at once both more and less racism than the average white guy.  I mean, the racist stuff I get is blatant and superevil because you know, you're doing it in my face. Intentionally.  At the same time, I'm probably not privy to as many behind closed doors just-between-us kind of racist remarks.

As for sexism and homophobia I guess I'm on the majority (in terms of power anyway) team.  I don't find Republicans any more sexist or homophobic than Democrats.  Yeah, I know some Tea Party-type assholes.  I also know some blue collar liberals who are "liberal" only in the sense that they are union.  Otherwise they're pretty much complete jerks.

luisterpaul

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,120
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #484 on: November 09, 2012, 07:02:25 AM »

Tell your Republican friends to move to Massachusetts. We need more of that sort around here.

It would be interesting to compare these two groups of conservatives to try to see what makes them tick. For example, education: Many of the folks I'm talking about didn't go to college. The military was their post-high school education. One of them even thinks the past tense of "bring" is "brang."
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Homsar

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 845
  • It's personal.
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #485 on: November 09, 2012, 08:41:43 AM »

One of them even thinks the past tense of "bring" is "brang."
What an idiot.  Everyone knows it's brung.
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smiley face

luisterpaul

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,120
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #486 on: November 09, 2012, 08:47:16 AM »

One of them even thinks the past tense of "bring" is "brang."
What an idiot.  Everyone knows it's brung.
This is what I'm saying.
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Markalot

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 289
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #487 on: November 09, 2012, 09:44:04 AM »

Have you heard or read about the Path to Citizenship?  Suddenly some (most?) republicans think this is a good idea.  The loss of the cuban-american vote shook them to the core.

Can't wait to have this conversation again with my brother in law.  I think this was discussed over at WOXY but back when W was president, who my BIL loved, he turned on a dime when W proposed amnesty.  I asked him how the hell we were going to deport thousands (millions?) of illegals.  What about the families, the kids ... isn't this what America is all about?  He would have nothing to do with actually THINKING about the issue.

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-- Mark

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,340
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #488 on: November 09, 2012, 10:22:36 AM »

I remember pointing that out on the WOXY board.  That regardless of what you think of illegal aliens, trying to deport them all would be a hugely inexpensive, messy affair that would tie the courts up.  The constitution allows them the right to go through an administration process which includes a hearing and appeals.And if the border aren't secure then they can just come right back in.

This is also why I hate the term "illegal aliens."  It's not that I'm PC.  It's that people need to get that they are not currently criminals.  You are just a guy without papers.  That is NOT a crime.  They may or may not have broken a law coming into this country but until you actually try them for it, they aren't illegal.  And it's not worth it to try them criminally as that just eats up more money and I think you would be likely to lose.  "How'd you get here?"   "Dunno.  Border guard just waved me through."  Burden of proof is on the state.  Unless you have concrete evidence of them sneaking in, they win.

The term "illegal aliens" implies that they are already criminals and have no rights and you can just grab hundreds of them, load them on the bus and dump them in Mexico or fly them to wherever.  It's not that easy.

The Path to Citizenship is good policy.  The Dream Act is even better policy.  Have you seen the wage differences between college educated and non-college educated people?  Those illegal immigrants have already been in this country for years spending taxpayer money while going to school (although probably also their parents are working under minimum wage so they are generating money).  If you send them to college and they get their degree they become productive citizens.  Don't we WANT college-educated immigrants coming over?  Or you can keep them illegal in which case they'll continue to stay here and not be able to get a job and mooch off society the rest of their lives.

Honestly, the only reason to go against the Dream Act is because 48% of Americans think they are entitled to a college education simply because they were born in America.  Which hardly seems very anti-entitlement or personal responsibility-like to me.  But my job is not to worry about that 48%.  Iíll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.

MissKitty

  • Hooray Beer!
  • City Elder
  • Posts: 8,436
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #489 on: November 09, 2012, 03:13:22 PM »

I know plenty of Republicans that aren't the least bit racist.
Could we possibly do a trade? Ohio and KY would gladly take some of your state's GOP if you will accept some of ours.

Please?
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Duct tape can't fix stupid.

Markalot

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 289
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #490 on: November 12, 2012, 08:45:07 AM »

With Florida now decided it appears all my predictions, as lame as they were, came true. 

Final electoral tally:  332 Obama, 206 Romney  +126
Republicans lose 6 house seats
Republicans lose 2 senate seats

Mercy.
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-- Mark

luisterpaul

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,120
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #491 on: November 12, 2012, 09:02:19 AM »

The GOP probably would have done much better if they just kept their mouths shut on the topic of rape.
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daytime drinking

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,619
Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #492 on: November 12, 2012, 01:59:43 PM »


This is also why I hate the term "illegal aliens."  It's not that I'm PC.  It's that people need to get that they are not currently criminals.  You are just a guy without papers.  That is NOT a crime.  They may or may not have broken a law coming into this country but until you actually try them for it, they aren't illegal.  And it's not worth it to try them criminally as that just eats up more money and I think you would be likely to lose.  "How'd you get here?"   "Dunno.  Border guard just waved me through."  Burden of proof is on the state.  Unless you have concrete evidence of them sneaking in, they win.

The term "illegal aliens" implies that they are already criminals and have no rights and you can just grab hundreds of them, load them on the bus and dump them in Mexico or fly them to wherever.  It's not that easy.

i'm pretty progressive when it comes to illegal immigration.  though the issue is murky for me.  what they provide for our society goes well beyond monetary borders, it's ashame that most folks cannot appreciate the culture they bring and with it the diversity.  i dare say they are a vital component to our economy.  why should china (and others) have all the cheap labor?  that said, what kind of person cannot produce the proper documentation stating they are here legally?  what would happen if i were to sneak into mexico illegally?  their illegal immigration stance sounds like vlad the impaler compared to ours.  don't you think, since you're already considered "suspicious"  cuz you look the way you do, that you'd have your papers ready within an hour or so of being detained for whatever reason?  now should they be considered "suspicious" to begin with isn't a question i'm going to touch.  i don't mind illegal immigrant labor, i love it, though we can't just open the borders.  and anyone caught here without papers, anyone who cannot prove their legal status, i have no problem being deported.  ever seen born in east la?  it's a huge risk they take, and they got some big assed balls.  i think a one time amnesty for anyone in the country to declare wouldn't be a bad thing.  hell, maybe in 50 years or so, offer another one.  but don't let them know.  i haven't thought this over very well. 

Quote
The Path to Citizenship is good policy.  The Dream Act is even better policy.  Have you seen the wage differences between college educated and non-college educated people?  Those illegal immigrants have already been in this country for years spending taxpayer money while going to school (although probably also their parents are working under minimum wage so they are generating money).  If you send them to college and they get their degree they become productive citizens.  Don't we WANT college-educated immigrants coming over?  Or you can keep them illegal in which case they'll continue to stay here and not be able to get a job and mooch off society the rest of their lives.

i think they already are productive citizens.  i think i missed some sarcasm?

Quote
Honestly, the only reason to go against the Dream Act is because 48% of Americans think they are entitled to a college education simply because they were born in America.  Which hardly seems very anti-entitlement or personal responsibility-like to me.  But my job is not to worry about that 48%.  Iíll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.

oh there it is!
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euro60

  • City Elder
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Re: 2012 Elections
« Reply #493 on: July 14, 2018, 12:13:55 AM »

6 years later... and still relevant
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