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Author Topic: Random Political Musings  (Read 46443 times)

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dirk

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1065 on: May 22, 2018, 01:15:27 PM »

What IG report are you talking about? The only one I know of coming soon is the one looking into Clinton's emails and how that was handled close to the election. And the word coming out is they are going to criticize Comey and McCabe about dragging their feet and not getting it handled quicked. These 2 are republicans, not democrats, and what they did hurt Clinton not helped her, so I have no idea where you are coming from that this report will hurt the dems.
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daytime drinking

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1066 on: May 22, 2018, 01:38:16 PM »

well i feel like a boob.  i thought the dem orchestrated collusion or whatever was what the ig report was about.  i think this is what zafer was talking about by calling me lazy.  to be fair, i've tried very hard not to like trump. 

no wonder why you guys had no idea what i was talking about
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1067 on: May 22, 2018, 03:47:26 PM »

The report is about Clinton's emails and how the DoJ handled the situation.

The GOP will want to say there was Dem-orchestrated collusion of course, because they think Clinton is guilty and should be in jail.  The problem is, it doesn't really work because of what dirk said.  Comey is not a Republican, and he massively screwed Clinton by handling the issue the way he did.

The Democrats will try to say that Comey helped the GOP and the election isn't legit.  But that doesn't ring true either, because if Comey had done his job properly then perhaps he should have charged Clinton or at least hit her harder in which case the bad shit would have come out way earlier and Comey couldn't have done a last-second screwjob because Clinton would already have been screwed.

It doesn't make Trump look any better or worse.  Comey could have mishandled the Clinton situation and Trump still colluded with Russia.  Clinton could have illegally hidden emails and Trump still obstructed justice.

You have to buy that Comey was intentionally working with Clinton and it's hard to swallow that argument when all Comey spilled the beans on supposedly finding new emails (which turned out to be neither new or damning) two weeks before the election. 

It seems like the only reasonable conclusion is that Comey is an idiot who screwed up the election.  Maybe his screw up helped Trump, or maybe not.  But it wasn't intentional.  He just took a big incompetent poop over the election and this is what happened.  We can't go back and fix it now.

That's why I say that Comey is the one screwed.  Whatever people thought about Trump or Clinton they will still think.  The investigation is about Comey's incompetence and it will be easy for everyone to agree on that.  And then they will spin that to help out whatever side but that's not going to change too many minds, just reinforce their opinion that Comey is screwed them over.

Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1068 on: May 22, 2018, 04:09:32 PM »

I gave up on the republicans, they won't do anything because they're radicalized.  I'm still conservative, that has not changed.
X2

Not to mention that Trump's version of the GOP is not something that I can identify with.

So my choice in the upcoming mid-terms elections is to vote some third party guy or gal who has no chance of winning, or to vote Dem. I'm leaning to the latter, just to send a message to Trump, and to the supposed "moderate" Republicans who are not standing up to Trump. Hello, Rob Portman? I've supported you in the past, gave lots of money to your campaign back in the day (but not in his 2016 Senate re-election bid that he won), I've voted for you, but, frankly, I'm very disappointed with you in these last couple of years. I've known Portman fairly well for over 30 years (when he was "just" another attorney here in town), and I know that he is exasperated with the Trump presidency, and I am baffled why he is not a stronger stance. Shame on him.

I'm disgusted by it all, frankly. But as I always remind myself. "people get the elected politicians they deserve", and that is true today in this country, sadly (from my perspective).

I still expect a surge of Dems being elected and taking over the House, if not also the Senate, but that could be just the optimistic in me. I think a lot will depend on voter turn-out. Why so few people actually get out to vote is a mystery to me, I mean, it's your only chance to say something about how you feel how things are going in this country. If you don't vote, don't complain.

I mean, here's the thing. 

You and markalot are not Democrats, and you don't agree with a lot of what the Democrats have to say.  And even among liberals, the Democrats have a growing schism between the moderate left and the far left, just like what happened with the GOP.  The one and maybe only thing we have in common is we don't want more Trump.

So if the Democrats were to talk a lot about raising corporate taxes or increasing funding to social programs, is that going to galvanize your support?  I think you're just going to be like "whoa, wait a minute.  I'm not down with any of this.  I just want Trump gone.  I don't know if I want to pay this high a price."

I don't really know what other political message they can send except to focus on the unifying factor amongst otherwise disparate factions.  For me, the issue is that they focus too much on Trump as a person, and not the whole far-right as a movement.  But I dunno, does that fly with conservatives or is that too partisan?

At any rate, you can expect that if the Democrats get in office they will definitely screw you over.  They're doing a good job (at least in Virginia) of running these sort of unassailable moderates.  Like a female veterans or minority ex-cops who are definitely pro-law and order and patriots yaddayadda... they just think the conservatives have gone too far right.  And that probably is how they feel, legit. Except when they're in office and all the bills are farther left... they're not going to vote against them.

Just how like Barbara Comstock seems like a non-crazy, reasonable moderate conservative who runs on non-crazy, reasonable platforms and says non-crazy, reasonable things... but then she votes like a maniac (and she's almost certainly going to lose that seat to a Democrat).

I don't know whether you go third party or suck it up and vote Democrat.  But you were minorities in your own conservative party so you are certainly going to be even more of a minority amongst liberals.  You know what I mean?  They're not going to do or say things that make you happy.  So it's just a matter of how much you dislike Trump. If you dislike him enough to vote Dem, then you have to let Dems run as Dems.  If they try to cater too much to conservatives, they will lose and that does neither of us any good.

And running as Dems means like 50% talking nasty stuff about Trump, 40% talking nasty about Republicans in Congress and the party in general, and maybe 10% throwing you guys a bone as reasonable US-loving, peaceful, conservative unlike your jerk friends and promising you a few things they won't follow up on.  I think that's what it takes to win.

euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1069 on: May 22, 2018, 10:57:26 PM »

I hear ya, ZK, but the thing right now for me is that we (moderate/reasonable conservatives) need to send a message to Washington, and Trump in particular, and the only way I can do that is how I vote in the mid-terms.

I fully realize that I don't agree with a number of the policy platforms of the Dems. But my disgust of what is going on right now may be stronger than that.

I will continue to monitor what is happening between now and November, I mean a lot of things could happen, such as Trump firing Moeller and bringing about a constitutional crisis (which I think is a real possibility), or some crazy foreign occurrence that sheds new perspective (think another 9/11 type situation with Iran or North Korea).

Crazy times.
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Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1070 on: May 23, 2018, 08:16:31 AM »

I don't see a constitutional crises arising, ever.  Trump is a great civics lesson IMO on the reasoning behind the various branches of government and their limits. 

Impeachment is a political process, not a legal one, so the voters can decide if Trump gets impeached by electing people who will impeach him.

If he fires Mueller, so what, big deal.  We all know Trump is a crooked real estate magnate who's poking porn stars and trying to dig up dirt on opponents in any way he can.  So what, big deal.  What part of the constitution cannot handle any of this? 

If Trump fires Mueller you know full well the republicans aren't going to do anything ... unless they think it will win them an election. 
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1071 on: May 23, 2018, 11:33:06 AM »

How do you define constitutional crisis?  Like open revolts in the street and miltary juntas?

I'd argue that Trump is challenging the constitution in all sorts of unprecedented and scary ways.  It's mainly only not a "crisis" because people don't give a shit and the Republicans in Congress just decided to resign instead of fight for their authority.

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1072 on: May 23, 2018, 01:14:59 PM »

How do you define a constitutional crises?  To me the only crises would be if the constitution did not work.  How is it not working?  People not caring is not a constitutional crises.  If Trump is thrown out of office and refuses to leave he will be removed by the next president, or congress, or the courts.  I just don't get the constitutional crises talk.

A constitutional crises is when the constitution doesn't handle a situation.  For example, of the pres and vice pres were no longer capable and we didn't have the speaker rule, that's a crises.  Not liking what someone is doing is not a crises.  Not following accepted norms is not a constitutional crises. 

As it stands now, every time the president does something the dems don't like, and it's not in the constitution, it's a crises!  If everything is a crises nothing is a crises. 
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luisterpaul

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1073 on: May 23, 2018, 02:32:37 PM »

How do you define a constitutional crises?  To me the only crises would be if the constitution did not work.  How is it not working?  People not caring is not a constitutional crises.  If Trump is thrown out of office and refuses to leave he will be removed by the next president, or congress, or the courts.  I just don't get the constitutional crises talk.

A constitutional crises is when the constitution doesn't handle a situation.  For example, of the pres and vice pres were no longer capable and we didn't have the speaker rule, that's a crises.  Not liking what someone is doing is not a crises.  Not following accepted norms is not a constitutional crises. 

As it stands now, every time the president does something the dems don't like, and it's not in the constitution, it's a crises!  If everything is a crises nothing is a crises.
The real crisis is how often, yet consistently, you misspelled "crisis."
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1074 on: May 23, 2018, 02:34:08 PM »

I think that something like the President colluding with Russia is not a constitutional crisis.  It's just an awful thing to do, for which there is a remedy in impeachment.  Or yeah, making all sorts of policy decisions people do not agree with is not a constitutional crisis.

But when there is a question about the powers of the President it's almost always a constitutional problem.  I don't know if it rises to "crisis," but it's unsolveable.

For example, the President's initial travel band was blatantly unconstitutional.  And the initial legal defense was basically that the President's power could not be checked by either the Supreme Court or Congress.  To me that's a constitutional crisis in a legal sense.  There's no rule for what happens when the Supreme Court says you should not do something and the President claims the Supreme Court does not have the power because there's no longer a final arbitrator to dispute that resolution.

In that case, Trump revised his order and I believe it is now constitutional, albeit shitty.  Others might argue it is still unconstitutional, but the point is the "crisis" was averted because Trump recognized the S. Ct.'s authority (if not officially, at least practically) by altering his Executive Order.

Another example is the President's assertion that he can pardon anyone he wants to (including himself) for any reason.  It's true that the constitution gives the President the power of the pardon.  But to me, it's logical there were intended to be limits to that ability.  Otherwise the President can do whatever he wants even if its blatantly unconstitutional and/or criminal  and then just pardon himself or whoever from any prosecution, thus rendering the entire concept of separation of powers meaningless.

He's asserted immunity from the emoluments clause, any ethical rulings, that the DoJ (and other agencies) have no independent authority, etc.  Those are bad constitutional problems even if you agree with the President's stance because by the nature of those claims there is no one who can challenge his authority.  If he fires everyone in DoJ who opposes him, and asserts Federal authority against any state AG, then who is there to bring suit against the President?

Things have not gotten to the point where we've had to put things to their ultimate test.  The President has asserted some incredibly sketchy and scary legal theories but he hasn't yet pardoned himself or fired Mueller.  So from an everyday governing point of view I guess you could say there is no "crisis."  But from a more technical, legal perspective I can see how one could say there is because there's so much stuff here that's heading rapidly towards uncharted waters.

His theories on the power of the Presidency when you step back and look at it as a whole are at a minimum, very controversial and as yet untested.  I wouldn't argue against someone calling that a "crisis."  It's maybe just the start of a crisis that hasn't gotten to the ultimate showdown yet, but it's still a "crisis."

Moreover, I believe the Democrats are completely correct to harp on some of this stuff even if I disagree with the exact verbiage.  What they are getting at is process concerns, whether they are technically constitutional issues or not.  And the process concerns to me are way more serious than individual policy concerns.

The President fucking with Amazon because Bezos writes bad things about him is a massive problem, even if you don't particularly care for Amazon (which many libs don't) is a terrible precedent.  A bad healthcare policy can be undone.  A bad tax policy can be undone (even if it's too late to undo the damage).  Scott Pruitt continuing to hold his position, the President bailing out ZTE, the crazy amounts of leakage from the White House, going to war with DoJ and IC, selective prosecution of groups that attack or investigate him, the war on the press, etc.  Those things are way, way, way more concerning than an idiotic trade war.

And I will go back to this again-- Congress just outright refusing to consider a Supreme Court nominee was to me a legit constitutional crisis.  I don't like Gorsuch that much as a choice (and oddly, he just issued two of the least "contextualist" opinions I've ever read), but I am far more concerned about how he got into that position than his rulings.  The fact that so many conservatives did not and still do not give a shit as long as they got their man was the first clear sign of how crazily far off the rail they've gone.

If we don't start calling out this stuff, then what happens when people like you and Euro60 end up voting in Democrats whose policies you don't particularly care for?  The left will just run you over completely.  It's vitally important to me that the Democrats have the high ground as far as "Hey, we know you might not like what we stand for but we're going to try and play it fair.  At least much fairer than Trump."  If the choice ends up being between right wing Trump and left wing Trump analogue, then we're fucked as a country.

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1075 on: May 23, 2018, 07:31:54 PM »

I agree with everything you said, except the running over part, but I don't think any of it is a crisis.   It's interesting that chrome does not thing crises is misspelled.   Apparently crises is the plural of crisis?  I've got a call into Funk & Wagnall to get this shit changed.

Again, calling everything a crisis means nothing is a crisis.  Obama did things repubs could call a crisis (I'm tired of spelling out constitutional so just assume it's in front), which would have been just as stupid.   Trump claiming he can do whatever he wanted DID NOT WORK, the judicial branch overruled his ass as spelled out in the constitution.  It worked.   We don't want the the constitution to spell out every damn fool thing someone can do and can't do.  It has the basics, they're pretty damn good, and things work themselves out.  Of course this is why I'm a conservative, right?  Don't go changing shit when you don't like something, let the system work.

As far as being rolled, voting the repubs out, if that strategy works, will cause them to evaluate and change.  It's not the quickest way to solve problems but in the end it's the most effective.  IMO.




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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1076 on: May 23, 2018, 11:22:28 PM »

a constitutional crisis (singular) will happen when Trump flaunts the law of the country, gets rebutted by the courts (eventually the Supreme Court), and he then refuses to abide by the Supreme Court's ruling, calling it a "witch hunt" or whatever.

We are perhaps far away from that (but perhaps not), but I could def see it happen. I mean, the man's ego and believe that since he's the President and hence the ultimate ruler of this country (which according to the laws of this country he is not) is such that he could bring along such a crisis. He is just a bullying megalomaniac, not to mention his incompetence on international affairs, trade, etc. And of course not to mention his disgusting character, but that's besides the point for the technical discussion of a constitutional crisis.

This man needs to go, the sooner, the better. I never likes Obama much, but in retrospect, I am finding new respect for him, seriously. While I didn't agree with a number of his policies, at least it was done in a respectful way. So yea, form matters, to me, to a degree.
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Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1077 on: May 24, 2018, 07:18:40 AM »

Whoever heard of a system where you need trials?" Trump maintained. "It's ridiculous. We're going to change the system for the good of the country."

lol
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1078 on: May 24, 2018, 10:21:11 AM »

Again, calling everything a crisis means nothing is a crisis.

No.  Sometimes it means the President is so bad there really are multiple crises.

The Democrats are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Trump lies, does something inane, or flies off the handle multiple times a day.  What are you supposed to do?  If you point them all out, then you run the risk of people becoming numb to all the criticisms.  But if you don't point it out, then it becomes the new normal. 

Of course the Democrats go overboard, because they are politicians and politicians do that.  But if you look at the actual leadership of the party, they've done a surprisingly okay job under the circumstances.  They know it's a bad move to impeach Trump, and even Pelosi has said so.  The candidates they ran in Virginia were mostly moderate or at least mild in their speech if not views, and they tried to stay with the issues instead of just attacking Trump non-stop.

You can't do anything about the rogue operators in very leftist areas trying to make a name for themselves.  Or control every PAC that wants to make a stupid ad.


Quote
Whoever heard of a system where you need trials?" Trump maintained. "It's ridiculous. We're going to change the system for the good of the country."

Yeah see... this is what I'm talking about.  How can you NOT react when the President apparently wants to do away with Due Process?  You can't just let that ride.  But he says stuff like this just about every day.

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1079 on: May 24, 2018, 10:43:11 AM »

Criseseses

It's not a crisis.  He can say whatever damn fool things we wants, he talks a lot like I do.  Rant Rant rant.  We will have to just disagree, not that we change each others minds on a regular basis anyway, but IMO it's only a crises if the system fails to reign him in.  So far it hasn't failed, and usually he doesn't mean half of what he says anyway.  Perhaps it's better to say, he doesn't understand half of what he says anyway. 


In reversal, Democrats will also get briefing on secret FBI source who aided Russia probe
The White House had said previously that only two GOP lawmakers would receive information on the FBI source. But after negotiations, the administration set up a second briefing that will be attended by some Democrats.


In my mind this was one of the more problematic issues and I assume someone explained to Trump how it's bad.  In the end, the system or whatever worked.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 10:48:43 AM by Markalot »
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