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Author Topic: Random Political Musings  (Read 100881 times)

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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1560 on: June 09, 2019, 11:18:17 PM »


You and euro60 are probably around 45%.  I’m maybe 55%.  So it’s going to be someone farther left than any of us would like.  But if Trump is at 20% and you are 45%, you’re still closer to the 65% Democrat candidate than you are Trump’s 20%.

I mean, if you voted for Clinton in the last election and now you’ve seen how Trump fulfilled or exceeded your worst nightmare, then you will vote Dem again.  You’ll probably be willing even to move a bit farther left if you have to, right?
this exactly reflects where I am, frankly. I voted for Hillary last time. There is zero chance I will vote for Trump in 2020. So my hope is that the Dem presidential isn't extreme left (say, Bernie or Elizabeth Warren), and I'll take it, even if it isn't my real liking, and so yes it will have moved me a bit to the left. But if the Dems presidential candidate is extreme left, I will not vote for that.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 11:20:43 PM by euro60 »
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Kwyjibo

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1561 on: June 10, 2019, 12:02:43 PM »

I find it incredibly ironic the way people on the right complain about the media being biased.  If anything, it's the opposite.  Yes, the media reports that Trump is a huckster, liar, philanderer etc.  However, these statements are all 100% factually accurate.  On the other hand, they do so in a way that is mealy mouthed at best, never straight up saying he lied just implying that he lied.  Never saying he's a cheat, just saying that he's been accused.  Never outright accusing him of dirty dealing, just saying that he's been accused of dirty dealing.

On the other hand, we get shit like this headline today from Yahoo: "Joe Biden's tired, he doesn't have the energy," implying that he doesn't have the stamina to run for/act as president, right?  Well, if you actually read the little blurb it goes on to say that these are baseless accusations coming from FOX pundits.  Why do they put the lie in great big letters?  Why not "FOX News Pundits Influence Viewers with Lies".

Funny enough it seems to have been changed while I was writing this post.  New headline: "Fox News Stars Begin Pushing Rumors About Joe Biden’s Health"

"Stars"  *rolls eyes*
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Dan

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1562 on: June 10, 2019, 12:08:11 PM »

I've always enjoyed this chart as an understanding of Media Bias:

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/media-bias-chart-3-1-minor-updates-based-constructive-feedback/



Could it be incorrect? Absolutely, and I'm sure the right would say so. But I think it's pretty accurate and well researched enough to be able to reference it with confidence. And if it's true, then the "liberal bias" is technically a thing but only by a small amount.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 12:42:48 PM by Dan »
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Markalot

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  • Posts: 364
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1563 on: June 11, 2019, 12:35:47 PM »

Read this.  Enlightening and depressing, but not surprising.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-or-a-democrat-eastern-iowa-ponders-its-presidential-choice/2019/06/11/caa982fa-8b0b-11e9-b08e-cfd89bd36d4e_story.html?utm_term=.7abffeed9acc

Here's the important excerpts.

Quote
“I voted for Trump — still not sure if it was the right decision,” said Tammy Faulkner, a 48-year-old convenience store clerk who lives in Louisa County in southeast Iowa and voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012. He seemed like a down-to-earth guy who would order a cheeseburger and fries, even if given fancier options, she said: “I have no qualms about voting either side, as long as they’re willing to do what it takes to get our country back to where we need it.”

Faulkner hasn’t been happy with some of the things Trump has done — namely, his comments about immigrants that she said “come across as racist” and the tariff war he started that could hurt the farmers who stop by her store for coffee — and she’s open to voting for a Democrat in 2020. But she has no idea whom that might be or even which of the 23 candidates might best align with what she’s looking for.

“In all honesty here,” she said, “lately I haven’t been paying a lot of attention.”

and

Quote
Kortemeyer considers himself a Democrat and voted for Obama twice. Ahead of the 2016 election, he planned to vote for Clinton and was excited by the idea of having a female president. But then, he said, he started learning more about the attack on the U.S. mission in Benghazi and other criticisms of Clinton from people he met on Facebook who claimed to know the former secretary of state.

Meanwhile, he like the idea of electing a businessman, although he was alarmed by some of the things Trump said during his campaign. Kortemeyer says he remembers thinking: “Oh, what the hell, let’s give this guy a chance.”

But Kortemeyer isn’t sure whether he will vote for Trump again. He disapproves of the president’s treatment of migrants at the border and what he sees as a reckless approach to foreign policy, and he thinks a border wall would be a waste of money. But he likes that the economy seems to be booming under Trump’s leadership.

He also likes that many Democrats want to make health care cheaper and easier to access, along with increasing the minimum wage — but he said he is starting to believe some of the things Trump says about Democrats not caring about working-class guys like him.

“Honestly, I don’t know what the hell I am anymore. I used to be a Democrat,” Kortemeyer said. “Do I want him to have a second term? I don’t know . . . I would vote for a Democrat, but they’re really going to have to convince me.”

Another explanation I've heard, as far as the dems issues, is that they are focussed on the loudest, and not the majority.  Twitter does not equal the democratic party, but the democratic party seems to be obsessed with twitter opinion.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:39:23 PM by Markalot »
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1564 on: June 11, 2019, 12:45:16 PM »

Yeah, I think that's one thing that the left is in denial about.

They think that these people were bamboozled by Trump, which is true.  But it also ignores that they were also voting for Democrats for many years without knowing what was going on or what they were doing.

You might be able to win over their votes, but they're still going to be idiots.  This is kinda why I have no interest in "feeling the pain" of rural voters.  They're the ones screwing over themselves, but they'll always blame everyone else.

Markalot

  • Citizen
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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1565 on: June 11, 2019, 01:39:39 PM »

But in the simplest terms you want your government to make your life better.  Forget the big picture here, and the philosophy difference between big and small government, but back the the core principles.

You have a group of people, they feel like they need structure so they form a government.  The expectation is the government will help promote their interests.  Old world, locally, with neighbors.  New World, with countries.  The bar to success gets higher, everyone pretty much needs a college education to make a decent living.  The economy is not working for them anymore.

Are they really stupid or ignorant?  If they're ignorant, of what?  Are their ideals really that wrong?   They're not all racists, 2 of these Obama voters had concerns over the way Trump was handling immigration.  BUT economic concerns trumped what otherwise might have been an ignorant but more rational decision. 

The kicker?  This majority, and yes it also contains a good number of racist fear mongers, but this majority got Trump elected.  Hell, they didn't even make a majority, it just happened the votes were in the right place to win the presidential election.  It's not a majority without the large group of people who have been left behind by the so called new economy.  Much of the old economy is gone because other countries, like China, took it from us.   We haven't stopped using textiles, or any of a number of other products that used to be made here, we just shifted production to where it's cheaper.

I used to get mad ... still get mad ... at unions driving higher wages and prices for American workers, which was largely responsible for moving these jobs away from the US.  Maybe now they realize that A job is better than NO job, but we (I) have to realize that without some kind of reasonable wage protection our economy is going to be in slow decline.  It's not healthy to have an imbalance between the rich and poor, it's not sustainable.  Trump, with all his faults, at least understands this part ... or maybe it's better to say, he understands that getting these votes will get him elected. 

Trump also plays the US first card, and plays it well.  Why did we let the rest of the world take these jobs?  Wasn't it the republicans who drove these policies?  How could we now elect a republican to reverse this when it's THEIR fault?  Doesn't matter to the average voter, they just want someone to fix it.   

My perfect candidate is tough on China, and any other country I see as hurting American jobs, fairness be damned.  I'm over global trade fairness, totally over it.  This candidate is also pro immigration, realizing that immigrants, regardless of color or religion or country of origin, is what makes America great.   I don't give a rats ass if they go to Europe and tell everyone they suck, because most of them do suck.  :D  I don't care if they don't follow 'norms' of expected behavior and I'm tired of reading about it.

So for me, the question is will the dems be able to field a reasonably centrist candidate who will cut through the drama and be an America first candidate that we can actually look up too, or will the party primary system produce someone who is flat out un-electable like Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders? 

Lastly, since it's a safe bet I will never vote for Trump, who will lose out when I vote for a third party candidate if the dems nominate a loser?

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:42:47 PM by Markalot »
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dirk

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1566 on: June 11, 2019, 02:41:23 PM »

Well, the problem is that other countries didn't take the manufacturing jobs. The biggest killer of manufacturing jobs in the US was automation. Between the late 80s and now, the US has lost about 5 million manufacturing jobs, but the manufacturing output has doubled. We aren't manufacturing less, we are making more with fewer people. The reason so many things are made overseas is that it is still cheaper than automating it. And yet with companies doing more with less (meaning more money for them), those unions you complain about are still the only thing allowing those people to make a decent wage. Sure, if we let companies hire people for 50 cents an hour they might have more manufacturing jobs here, but that is the worst idea around. Companies are making more money than ever and paying people less than ever, but somehow the employees are always blamed for the high prices instead of companies making record profits.

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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1567 on: June 11, 2019, 04:06:01 PM »

So for me, the question is will the dems be able to field a reasonably centrist candidate who will cut through the drama and be an America first candidate that we can actually look up too, or will the party primary system produce someone who is flat out un-electable like Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders? 

You don't get it.  A moderate-centrist type is the LAST thing these people want.

Bernie Sanders polls way better among the rural white/rust belt crowd than mainstream Democrats do. Which is why every Bernie Bro is convinced that Bernie would have beaten Trump because he was way more popular in the swing Obama-to-Trump states than Clinton was.

They don't follow politics that closely and they don't understand how hard it is to actually get things done.  So they react to big themes and grand promises and people who stand up to the establishment.  Bernie is populist, just like Trump.

Quote
My perfect candidate is tough on China, and any other country I see as hurting American jobs, fairness be damned.  I'm over global trade fairness, totally over it.

Then you're as stupid as they are.  As long as you are fixated on jobs and the alleged theft of jobs, then you will vote for candidates who promise to fix it.  Which means you will vote for terrible candidates, because other countries aren't taking our jobs, the President can't really create jobs, and jobs are a stupid thing to worry about in the first place.  Only fraudsters will make the promises you want to hear.  And so you'll keep voting for frauds.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:20:50 PM by Zafer Kaya »
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Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1568 on: June 11, 2019, 04:34:49 PM »

Nope, not that I can talk you out of your beltway beliefs.


Give a non caring person someone who talks tough like Trump and isn't Trump and they are our next president.

Oh, and how about this Biden quote from today.

Quote
The president is literally an existential threat to America

Good one, lots of votes in a quote like that.  See that's one of the issues.  The dem politicians are out of step with their voters now.  Does Joe really believe Trump is a threat to this country, as in our country will end?  Do most of the voters who he needs to vote for him?

If you (whoever) wan't to think most people are idiots that's all well and good, but the game here is to win.  Good politics is winning elections and getting things done.  If anything it's more truthful to say that our two party system is literally an existential threat to America.  I don;t believe either one, our country is incredible good at self correcting, sometimes we just need a solid example of what to correct.   Trump, long term, might be the best thing to happen to our political system.

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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1569 on: June 11, 2019, 04:59:39 PM »

Quote
Give a non caring person someone who talks tough like Trump and isn't Trump and they are our next president.

Yes, but it's a difficult stance to take as a centrist.  If you're like "I hate Trump" then Warren is just like "Oh yeah, I hate Trump way more.  Look how opposite I am of him!"

Quote
Good one, lots of votes in a quote like that.  See that's one of the issues.  The dem politicians are out of step with their voters now.  Does Joe really believe Trump is a threat to this country, as in our country will end?

Dude.  That's exactly how Trump won. This is also why people continue to support or at least remain lukewarm about Trump despite his reckless authoritarianism.  He gets away with stuff because people believe he's their only chance of survival.
That's also EXACTLY why people liked Sanders.

You want a centrist who talks like Trump, that's exactly what Biden is doing.  The only thing he's doing wrong is using too many big words in his tweets.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 05:01:15 PM by Zafer Kaya »
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Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1570 on: June 11, 2019, 06:29:29 PM »

I was making fun of the big word :)   I get it.  Joe did call Trump a big dummy later.
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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1571 on: June 11, 2019, 10:49:00 PM »

Reading the above post exchanges, what this tells me is that it's an incredible complicated issue as to how and why certain voters are inclined to vote Trump, despite all the shit that he produces, and that to dismiss those voters isn't helping anyone.

Those of us that are commenting on these issues here are, I suspect, MANY times more informed about the issues than the average voter (the fabled Joe Six Pack or the Soccer Mom).

I am really interested to see how the Dems primaries are going to play out, starting now, but for real in early 2020. It will tell me a lot how the Dems can figure out what to do about Trump, and whether they have a real chance to unseat Trump (who by all means should be unseated, but that's clear among us "better informed" posters).
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1572 on: June 12, 2019, 01:38:25 AM »

You can’t dismiss those voters, because they account for a huge chunk of the voting population.  And definitely the majority of the swing states.

It’s just hard to know how to appeal to those voters because really, it makes no sense to vote for Obama (or in some cases people had voted Dem their entire lives) and then vote for Trump.  It makes no sense to like Trump but have Bernie as your second choice.  It really wouldn’t make much sense to vote for Trump and then vote Democrat in 2020.

Also, it wasn’t JUST that Trump made crazy promises and appealed to a sense of desperation.  That was a huge part of it and the underlying impetus’s.  But he did also k,find two major policy issues that had “bipartisan” appeal to swing state voters.  Anti-Obamacare and immigration.

He is no longer looking so strong on the healthcare side, but he still has the anti-immigrant thing working.  Biden is doing a very good job on attacking handling Trump on a personal attack level.  But he does not have a signature policy issue.  That’s what he needs.  It doesn’t have to be a sensible one.  In fact it shouldn’t be if he wants to win.  But I don’t think he has one, nor anyone on the Democrat side.

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1573 on: June 12, 2019, 06:12:31 PM »

>>  makes no sense

See I disagree, it does make perfect sense if you can completely turn off any partisan filter.   Nothing was working, maybe this will work.  The other choices made no sense.

No listen to Joe, apparently he's on board with hating China now.  That's more consistent than not since the dems hated China prior to Trump, but Trump is setting the narrative and Biden is following. 
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1574 on: June 12, 2019, 09:52:23 PM »

I don’t think you’re making any sense right now but.... I get it.

You are, in all likelihood going to have to vote for someone you dislike, with no assurances that person will win.  I would be so pissed off if I voted for Kasich and Trump still won.

Listen.  A week ago McConnell basically admitted he does not carevthe constitution or his duties and he did, and will continue to pack the judicial system with as many conservative justices to prevent libeerals from ever having a say.  Like, he said it right out loud and laughed about it.  He never a shit about the time to election or the constitution.

Trump tonight just said, yeah I would cheat in an election and betray my own country’s interests for a foreign country.  Oh the FBI says it’s wrong?  I don’t care.

What can you possibly say to get someone to change their minds that could possibly be more convincing than the things the GOP is already doing?  I have no idea.

I don’t blame the Democrats for just being all like “Did you hear that?!?  Come on, people.  I just can’t even.....” because that is what anyone with half a brain and any sense of integrity is doing.

The key to the election rests with the ill-informed, the assholes, and the insane.  Yes, it’s very scary.

On China— yes Biden flip-flopped.  I’m okay with this politically.  He’s trying out positions, and if he crashes and burns some other candidate can learn from his mistakes.  If we’re going to have 5,000 Dems running, I’d rather they not all play it coy.  Everyone throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.  As long as they are going after Trump and not each other.

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