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Author Topic: Random Political Musings  (Read 100707 times)

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euro60

  • City Elder
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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1575 on: June 13, 2019, 12:04:50 AM »

I want to like Biden, but where is the conviction? I see none (as compared to, say Bernie or Warren).

Biden's main point seems to be "Trump is a disaster". Which reminds me of watching Hillary at her campaign stop here in Cincinnati 2 days before the 2016 elections, and look where that got her (of course she spoke in the future tense then).
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Markalot

  • Citizen
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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1576 on: June 13, 2019, 06:13:32 PM »

Timing,

I said what I said before the interview.

These things ARE damaging, but politicians are experts in lies and distractions.  Maybe what Trump said will stick, but we won't know it until the elections.   There are still a number of voters, older voters, that are not too keen on foreign interference.  Many of them are republican.   The media is a stuck record, Trump said something OUTLANDISH!    You know what real reporting is though?  The fact than many of these outlandish things ARE NOT AGAINST THE LAW.  How about reporting that rather than telling us what an asshole Trump is. 

It appears many republicans, including the house minority leader, are on board making some of this shit illegal.   We'll see.
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Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,733
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1577 on: June 13, 2019, 10:45:52 PM »

Taking information oppo research from a foreign country most likely IS against the law.

But naw, I disagree completely.  If you focus only on things that are illegal, people lose track of what a dick Trump is.  Besides, it isn't the media's job to take down Trump.  Their job is to report the news.  If Trump tells a lie or sats something outlandish everyday, then you report that.

This is National Review neocon nevertrump nonsense.  The media is right.  The liberals are right.  They're not only right now, they've been right for decades about the GOP.  I always say it and I'll say it again.  The path to Trump is a result of years of Republican bullshit.  These people created a monster, but they still won't accept responsibility.  It's *still* the left, and the media, and political correctness or anyone and everything but themselves.

The media are terrible, God made America better than everyone else, every Muslim is a terrorist, there is no racism in America except against white people, scientist are lying to you about climate change...gee, I wonder how we got here? 

No one pays any attention to them anymore because they tell Trump followers they are right about everything they feel, but somehow they have to keep the gloves on.  Why?  If the constitution is under attack and the liberals are trying to destroy American exceptionalism you have to fight fire with fire. 

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,733
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1578 on: June 13, 2019, 11:20:29 PM »

I want to like Biden, but where is the conviction? I see none (as compared to, say Bernie or Warren).

Biden's main point seems to be "Trump is a disaster". Which reminds me of watching Hillary at her campaign stop here in Cincinnati 2 days before the 2016 elections, and look where that got her (of course she spoke in the future tense then).

Clinton had probably the most detailed and broad policy agenda of any candidate in my lifetime.  Trump had no idea and still has no idea about policy.  He won on “Clinton is a disaster.” 

And tbf, Obama won that first election on “Hope and Change.”  I remember right after he won thinking things were getting a little cultish on the left, so I imagine it was worse for you.

Warren and Bernie are somewhat left-wing Trumps. They speak with conviction because they are unbound by truth, practicality or consequence.  You don’t want that. 

I mean...it’s hard.  Trump pretty much says and does just about everything we think is horrible and shouldn’t work.  He lies blatantly about easily disprovable facts of no consequence.  We wake up everyday and wonder “How the hell did this guy become President?”

The things we think people should do morally and politically obviously don’t work.  But then you don’t want things to degenerate further by trying to out-Trump Trump.  I don’t know, man.  It’s going to be an ugly election and we’re going to have to compromise in unpleasant ways to stop Trump.  That’s how it is.  Especially for a conservative,you’re not going to walk away from the election with a clean conscience.

Markalot

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 364
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1579 on: June 14, 2019, 10:55:40 AM »

Taking information oppo research from a foreign country most likely IS against the law.
 

Most likely?   It is NOT against the law because all the rules say is you can't take something of value, and that's up for constant debate not only on the wording but how enforceable it it.  Pelosi has proposed a very simple addition that codifies the taking of information from a foreign source during a campaign illegal. 

That's what's important, not the fact Trump is an asshole.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1580 on: June 14, 2019, 11:56:17 AM »

Trump called it "oppo research."  Which is what Fusion GPS did.  Why did anyone pay Fusion GPS to do opposition research if it is worthless?   Did Trump not pay the Enquirer to spike a story?  Why does Trump try to get everyone in his administration to sign NDA's?

Because information has value.  It's not really even a debate.  The only reason why there would be any question is because Trump owns the justice department and the judges.  In Trump's view *nothing* is enforceable against him as a sitting President and with Barr as AG and the Supreme Court stacked, he might be right.

I remember a time not too long ago, when the conservatives including yourself were all like "If you don't like Trump the solution is simple.  Just impeach him.  It's just a vote.  Don't go doing all these fool investigations." So if Trump is unpopular and doing asshole things and we can impeach for just being an unpopular asshole, then newspapers should report on the unpopular and asshole things he does in order to inform the public so they can make a push for impeachment.

But no wait, now it's "No, it's not important. You can't impeach unless he does something illegal.  We need to focus on the illegal!!!"  Well no, it's will be very hard to push any sort of criminal charge against Trump because he and his AG are firm believers in the Unitary Executive and they have stacked the courts with as many partisan and incompetent justices as they can, and all of this was not only 100% okay but actively encouraged by the neocon set.

Basically, the snobby right wing is A-OK with Trump except for the fact that he is uncouth and says stupid shit that's embarrassing. And he's starting to cost them money.  No one gives a shit about Kasich wringing his hands, "But it's so... undignified.  It's so uncouth." 

It's very important to me as a voter not to have an asshole for a President.  Apparently you don't care, as long as they are dignified assholes.  And that's why "mainstream" Republicans are dead. I think and have thought for years that you all were assholes, and Trump supporters think you're just a bunch of snobby pussies and they're right.

"Oh no, we can't have a Muslim travel ban that makes us look racist.  We should go bomb the shit out of them and kill them all and then we won't have to worry about it."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 12:17:48 PM by Zafer Kaya »
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Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1581 on: June 14, 2019, 12:35:34 PM »

Now you're not making any sense.

The point is to put very specific laws on the books that a slimebag like Trump can't get around.  The repubs won't convict, this is a given, but if they allow passage of this law then why not?   My criticism of the media is also valid, and criticism of the media is not all the same.  90% of the Trump stories are about him breaking tradition, but not the law.  Let's make it the law, with the goal being to clearly show a law is broken and then daring the republicans not to convict.  Let it go on their permanent record, history will not be kind. 

« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 12:37:08 PM by Markalot »
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1582 on: June 14, 2019, 02:58:06 PM »

Oh, this is rich.  So you want to legislate PC rules to forbid the President from being a dickhead?

The Republicans control the Senate, and Trump himself has to sign any law restricting his powers.  What are the odds of any such legislation passing?  Zero.  And how would you try push to get a law passed to stop Trump's assholery other than by pointing out he's being an asshole and the consequences of it?

No, the difference is this.  YOU care about tradition.  The reason why the media run stories to point out that Trump is doing things that haven't been done before is to make a point to people who don't care about the policy but maybe do care about the process.  See?  I don't particularly need the media to tell me I shouldn't vote for Trump because he declared a stupid National Emergency to build a wall.  I don't support the wall in the first place.  And I don't support the racist thinking behind the wall.  I would not vote for Trump even if he hadn't declared that National Emergency.  I don't want a racist in the White House, whether or not racism is legal or not. 



For my part, I'm actually sort of glad that Trump is an incompetent loudmouth.  Because he's a walking billboard for what's wrong with the right while his antics are actually causing him to be less effective.  If we had Pence, or maybe Cruz they'd be doing the same things, but they'd be much slicker about it.

The nevertrump right is mostly bothered that Trump isn't effective enough at being racist asshole.  He's a glutton and trying
to take 10 feet when all he needs right now is 2 inches, and it usually backfires on him.  These are mostly rich people who want to be richer, but they're not willing to go all-in because they have too much to lose.  Every single article from the right is like "Hey we should be against Trump doing this IN THIS WAY, because if he does then the Democrats can use this to totally screw us if they get in."  It's never "Hey, we should be against Trump because this is a just an asshole thing to do in the first place."

I'm bothered by the fact that Trump is a racist asshole.  The nevertrump right is only worried that Trump is a bumbling racist asshole.  We are making a pact that at least we can agree that Trump shouldn't be upending the constitution.  And that's as far as it goes.   

You're angered by the fact that the left and the media aren't attacking Trump the way you would like him attacked.  You blew it by allowing this to happen to your party, and now you're trying to make the left do what you want.  Sorry, no sale.

euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1583 on: June 14, 2019, 11:19:02 PM »


I'm bothered by the fact that Trump is a racist asshole.  The nevertrump right is only worried that Trump is a bumbling racist asshole.  We are making a pact that at least we can agree that Trump shouldn't be upending the constitution.  And that's as far as it goes.   


As one of those "nevertrump right" persons, it goes a lot deeper (at least for me). He has upended so many previously accepted leaning-right policies that I can't really see how right-leaning voters and legislators can accept them. But sadly, many do. Why? I have no clue. Which is why I am so frustrated and disappointed with "moderate" Republicans for not speaking out more (prime example: OH Sen Rob Portman, from my home town here in Cincinnati and whom I know well). I used to be (in 2004-2016) a HUGE supporter of Portman (and donated accordingly over the years). When I was recently approached to contribute for Portman's next run, I told them "are you kidding me? I voted straight Dems in the 2018 elections". I did not get a response back.
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

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  • Posts: 3,733
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1584 on: June 16, 2019, 11:57:32 AM »

Portman votes with Trump 92% of the time, which is more than the average GOP Senator.  He has also already endorsed him in 2020.  There’s nothing moderate about him at all.
That’s the point I’m making. That there is no one on the right really willing to attack Trump on his policies, or the whole nationalist/authoritarian philosophy that underpins the policy.

If we believe that global warming is a vast conspiracy, and the mainstream media is a front for Soros’s plan to be a world leader, and that the country is being invaded by millions of rapists and murderer’s that’s a pretty bleak scenario where it kind of makes sense to declare martial law instead of hoping for the proper appropriation bills to make their way through a Congress that is in on and supporting the plot.

The mainstream media and the left are saying the things that need to be said.  Why attack them, instead of the supposed “moderate” or nevertrump right.  The left is correct to point out all the things that Trump says/does that are awful even if they are not illegal or unconstitutional.  The left also has a pretty clear message, it’s just not one you (o to a lesser extent, me) agree with.

But no one is going to speak up for the moderate right until the can prove they actually exist.  As long as Portman is just a faceman for Trump, no one cares what the “moderate” right thinks. 

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1585 on: June 16, 2019, 05:08:33 PM »

Quote
You're angered by the fact that the left and the media aren't attacking Trump the way you would like him attacked.  You blew it by allowing this to happen to your party, and now you're trying to make the left do what you want.  Sorry, no sale.

At some point you misunderstood what I said.  Forget the left, just the media here.   I think it would go a long way for them to report what Trump is doing and if we have laws ion the books vs if we don't.  Many times we go days with a Trump did so and so which broke the law ... and then, just as you said above, we start hearing 'probably' illegal ... and then woops, actually, there is no law.   

For the contact with a foreign official issue I say let's pass a law.  So what if Trump vetos it.  He won't, but it appears there's enough support in the house and senate to pass this.   Why not?

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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1586 on: June 16, 2019, 11:40:55 PM »

I caught most of tonite's "30 Hours with President Trump" special on ABC, where George Stephanopoulos hung out with Trump for 30 hrs. It was insightful to see how Trump is so much into his own universe, pretty much like a psychopath who believes his own lies to be true. I thought Stephanopoulos did a pretty good job in pushing back on a number of things, which of course Trump immediately dismisses as "fake news" (such as recent polls showing Biden leading vs. Trump). It is clear that Trump backers are going to believe whatever they want to believe. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,733
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1587 on: June 16, 2019, 11:47:06 PM »

Quote
Why not?

Because they already tried it and Blackburn killed it.  And they needed unanimous consent because McConnell has already said he will not let any normal bill even get a floor vote.  It will never even get out of committee.

Trump would 100% veto the bill you propose, but he will never have to because the Senate will kill them all. 
There is only support in the House, and only because Dems have the majority.  The House GOP is even more batshit insane than the Senate. 

The ENTIRE GOP is crooked.  It's not just Trump.  It's not just Congress.  It's just about every pundit, too, including the nevertrumpers.  The right is rotten to the core.  You need to start all over from scratch to fix it.  Not just pass a couple bills to try and contain Trump.  The problem is much, much deeper than Trump.  He's just a symptom.

Markalot

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  • Posts: 364
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1588 on: June 17, 2019, 08:54:15 AM »

The interview I watched was with the house minority leader, a republican, who said he would pass it.  You sure we're talking about the same thing?
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Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1589 on: June 17, 2019, 10:22:40 AM »

And yea, wow.  In looking for that article all I can find is the block of the Warner bill in the senate.   I missed that news completely.

So yea, crazies.

I think it does long term harm, I really do.  A lot of their voters have fought, or were stationed to fight these foreign powers, I just can't imagine this sitting well with them.  At the same time this group is not going to protest much in the media so we won't know until the election takes place.   

It also seems like blocking this bill is going to make a great ad for the dems.  What am I missing?
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