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Author Topic: Random Political Musings  (Read 51125 times)

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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #810 on: February 03, 2017, 10:00:24 AM »

I mean, really, you entered here illegally and next thing you know, they become US citizens? Why?

Why SHOULDN'T they become US citizens?  They've gone through more to get to this country than 99% of the population.  No one wants to be here more than them.  They work for less than minimum wage.  They pay sales tax and often Social Security even though they get very little back from it.

You're just hung up on the fact they entered "illegally."   But that's because of us, not them.  We make them illegal, then use that illegality to point to some moral failing on their part, so we can kick them out.

I'm actually with daytime drinking in that I would prefer to have no borders anywhere.  I realize this is impossible as a political reality.  So, I'm actually down with better border security, although the wall is stupid idea.  But I would have a pretty lax immigration policy, and let most of the "illegal" immigrants in legally.

And I would gave amnesty to most of the ones already here.  You can waste a fuckton of resources and time rounding them up booting them out.  Or you can make them legal and start collecting lots of revenue from them.


Cockney Rebel

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #811 on: February 03, 2017, 10:14:59 AM »

I know this is cliche, but that's really what this whole country is about.  We were founded by immigrants, for immigrants.  Throughout history, the country's greatness has been built on the backs of immigrants, and many of the great risk takers especially in the late 19th and early 20th century were immigrants.

Now all of the sudden, we're good?  No thanks, we're all full up?  Why?  Because they're not WASPs?  Because whitey is afraid of being overrun?  Because we're afraid of being bombed out of our cities by brown people?  Because NOW we've decided to draw an arbitrary line in the sand?

That's all fine and good if you're Europe and you've been around for 1500 years and you are 90% white.  America is different.  We've only been around 250 years and we're still developing, and people WANT to come here because of the freedom and liberty and opportunity, etc. etc.  So why now?  Because it really comes down to the "greatest generation" is selfish as all fucking shit and is trying to keep all the power and money and privilege for themselves at this point.  And the next generation that was stupid enough to listen to them and believe them is right there with 'em.
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Butter

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #812 on: February 03, 2017, 10:32:16 AM »

You're just hung up on the fact they entered "illegally."   But that's because of us, not them.  We make them illegal, then use that illegality to point to some moral failing on their part, so we can kick them out.

I'm actually with daytime drinking in that I would prefer to have no borders anywhere.  I realize this is impossible as a political reality.  So, I'm actually down with better border security, although the wall is stupid idea.  But I would have a pretty lax immigration policy, and let most of the "illegal" immigrants in legally.

And I would gave amnesty to most of the ones already here.  You can waste a fuckton of resources and time rounding them up booting them out.  Or you can make them legal and start collecting lots of revenue from them.

Amen to all of that.
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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #813 on: February 03, 2017, 11:43:43 AM »

None of you have answered my earlier question: do you know of any other countries where people that enter "illegally" (as in: without the proper visa, and not being a refugee who is fleeing disastrous atrocities) are welcomed to stay as they please without any restrictions, let alone given a path to citizenship of that country?

It sounds to me like you keep talking about refugees, and I couldn't agree more that we should take our fair share, ok MORE than fair share, of refugees. I completely disagree with Trump on his ban to take in refugees from the Middle East or frankly anywhere else. What Trump just did yesterday relating to the previously agreed take-in on refugees currently in Australia is outrageous.

I also completely disagree with Trump on his position on work-related visas (the so-called H-1Bs). Rather than cutting them down (as is likely to happen), we need to INCREASE them dramatically.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #814 on: February 03, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »

What I'm advocating is that as a pragmatic matter, we treat current undocumented aliens the same as we do H-1Bs and refugees.

Like look at the EU.  I'm guessing there isn't that much "illegal" immigration from Germany to France.  Why?  Because there is Freedom of Movement of Workers and they decided it was legal for people to cross the borders.  Or like Spain.  You come from South America, they let you in and it's two years to citizenship.

So there are plenty of countries that allow for very free travel from other countries.  I'm not advocating this, but we could turn NAFTA into the EU and allow free movement of workers between the US, Mexico, and Canada.

The bottom line for me, is that if some group of people would provide a net benefit to our country by living here or becoming citizens, then we should let them do that.  If they are in India and need an H1B, give it to them.  If they are five miles South of the border, let them through the wall legally.  If they are already here, great.  Give them their papers.

To me, the fact that some people may have arrived here illegally is a sunk moral cost.  Maybe it sticks in the craw a bit, but we can't change that now.  All I care about is what benefits us the most going forward. 

I'm not going to get hung up on what is "illegal" when we can fix that by simply making it "legal" any time we want.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 12:31:57 PM by Zafer Kaya »
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Butter

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #815 on: February 03, 2017, 01:45:06 PM »

None of you have answered my earlier question: do you know of any other countries where people that enter "illegally" (as in: without the proper visa, and not being a refugee who is fleeing disastrous atrocities) are welcomed to stay as they please without any restrictions, let alone given a path to citizenship of that country?

With all due respect (and I do mean that), you would know that better than I would because I'm not a lawyer.
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Kwyjibo

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #816 on: February 03, 2017, 04:54:00 PM »

None of you have answered my earlier question: do you know of any other countries where people that enter "illegally" (as in: without the proper visa, and not being a refugee who is fleeing disastrous atrocities) are welcomed to stay as they please without any restrictions, let alone given a path to citizenship of that country?

I don't and I don't give a fuck.  Why do we have to do what other countries do?  I agree 100% with what ZK said, they want to be here, possibly even more than I do,  let 'em in and tax them.
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Dan

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #817 on: February 03, 2017, 05:07:56 PM »

I like this. This is an interesting conversation with well thought out points and doesn't seem like a fight.

It's refreshing. Please continue.
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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #818 on: February 04, 2017, 12:40:54 AM »

None of you have answered my earlier question: do you know of any other countries where people that enter "illegally" (as in: without the proper visa, and not being a refugee who is fleeing disastrous atrocities) are welcomed to stay as they please without any restrictions, let alone given a path to citizenship of that country?

I don't and I don't give a fuck.  Why do we have to do what other countries do?  I agree 100% with what ZK said, they want to be here, possibly even more than I do,  let 'em in and tax them.
This would be a truly completely turn-around of what has been the accepted standard. Not just here, but anywhere in the world. Almost Trump-like, but in a 360 degree turn-around.

I understand your viewpoint, but I respectfully disagree, for many reasons.
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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #819 on: February 04, 2017, 12:53:45 AM »

What I'm advocating is that as a pragmatic matter, we treat current undocumented aliens the same as we do H-1Bs and refugees.

Like look at the EU.  I'm guessing there isn't that much "illegal" immigration from Germany to France.  Why?  Because there is Freedom of Movement of Workers and they decided it was legal for people to cross the borders.  Or like Spain.  You come from South America, they let you in and it's two years to citizenship.

ZK, you are making an intellectual jump (treating legal immigrants the same as those that entered the US illegally) that I just don't buy.

As to the EU intra-state migration from Germany to France, it's like migration from Ohio to Michigan. The EU is a 28 territory jurisdiction, like the US is a 50 territory jurisdiction. No country in the EU gives non-EU immigrants that either don't have a valid visa or is a refugee a welcome mat, let alone a "path to citizenship"
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The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #820 on: February 04, 2017, 01:49:16 PM »

When England brexits, would you argue that they have to give every non-UK European citizen in the country a path to citizenship, simply because they came there legally?

I think that would be silly.  They can be douchebags about it (which it looks like is their plan), they can be very magnanimous, or they can fall somewhere in the middle.  It's their country, they can decide within the realms of international law, who they wish to offer citizenship to. 

It's the same thing for the US. I'm not arguing that the US is obligated to grant a path to citizenship to illegal aliens or anyone else in the world.  I'm simply saying that we can, if we want, grant citizenship to whoever we choose.  Especially if they are within our borders.

We didn't patrol our borders so we have a bunch of people here who aren't citizens.  That's a problem, whether you are pro-immigrant or anti-immigrant because you can't have a shadow citizenry in a country living under a completely different set of rules.  So I understand the need to fix that.  But, the fact that they are presently undocumented is a sunk cost to me.  They're here, they weren't supposed to be.  Can't do anything about that now.

We have two general options then, to get everyone in this country in sync and living under the same rules.  We can refuse to grant them citizenship and deport them.  Or we can grant them citizenship. 

The same thing with Syrian refugees.  We can grant them citizenship or refuse to take them in.  H1B visas, same thing.  We can hand those out to whomever we choose.

We decide who we want to make citizens.  IMO, for the majority of the illegal immigrants in this country-- especially like DACA students-- I think it benefits us way more to make them citizens.  "Tough hombres" and "bad dudes" we can deport.

It's a pragmatic decision.  I'm not being all bleeding-heart here.  I'm 'murica first.  If it helps US, we should do it.

This reminds me off Jonathan Haidt.  He did this survey once, and one of the questions was "You're cleaning your toilet and you discover there are no brushes or anything in the house.  Just an American flag.  Do you use the flag to clean the toilet?"

Some people were like, no way!  You deal with a dirty toilet.  That flag is a symbol of our country.  Others were more like "Why not, it's just a piece of cloth that happens to have certain colors on it.  If it gets the job done, use it."  I would use the flag to clean the toilet and not think twice about it.

Same thing here.  There's a principle you wish to uphold here, and those people therefore have a sort of symbolic meaning beyond just their flesh.  For me, I don't care about that principle.  Which isn't to say you only care about principles, and I am totally pragmatic.  Just that in this case you care about the principle more than I do.

dirk

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #821 on: February 04, 2017, 04:13:49 PM »

I think the key is at some point, it is better for everyone to offer some people citizenship even if they came here illegally. No one (well, no one serious) is suggesting we offer citizenship to every single person who get in the country. But say you have someone who was brought here when they were young and have grown up entirely in the US. They graduated high school here, maybe even went to college. What purpose does it serve to deport them to a country they have never been to? Or someone who came over 10 years ago and has since started a small business and is employing people. Where is the benefit to deporting that person? At some point, if a person has been here long enough and assimilated into the culture, it is better for both sides to just let them stay and offer them citizenship. Yes, this won't apply to everyone, but it would apply to a huge amount of people who have come in illegally and stayed for a while. The only thing you are doing by saying "deport everyone who came here illegally" is hurting everyone by being vindictive.
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euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #822 on: February 04, 2017, 11:54:20 PM »

We can refuse to grant them citizenship and deport them.  Or we can grant them citizenship. 
Wrong! we can decide to do neither. And simply leave things as they are today.
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

euro60

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #823 on: February 05, 2017, 12:01:44 AM »

I think the key is at some point, it is better for everyone to offer some people citizenship even if they came here illegally. No one (well, no one serious) is suggesting we offer citizenship to every single person who get in the country. But say you have someone who was brought here when they were young and have grown up entirely in the US. They graduated high school here, maybe even went to college. What purpose does it serve to deport them to a country they have never been to? Or someone who came over 10 years ago and has since started a small business and is employing people. Where is the benefit to deporting that person? At some point, if a person has been here long enough and assimilated into the culture, it is better for both sides to just let them stay and offer them citizenship. Yes, this won't apply to everyone, but it would apply to a huge amount of people who have come in illegally and stayed for a while. The only thing you are doing by saying "deport everyone who came here illegally" is hurting everyone by being vindictive.
I agree with that. This is very different from the blanket statement to grant a path to US citizenship to all illegal immigrants currently in the country.

And for the record, I have never said to deport anyone. As far as I'm concerned, nobody needs to be deported, which is my viewpoint. But neither do I feel a strong desire to give them a "path to citizenship", but for the examples you cite, which I'm okay with.
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #824 on: February 05, 2017, 12:17:20 AM »

We can refuse to grant them citizenship and deport them.  Or we can grant them citizenship. 
Wrong! we can decide to do neither. And simply leave things as they are today.

Meh.  That's crazy weak.  After all that, too.  Get the fuck right outta town with that bullshit.  How many countries do you know that have illegal immigrants in their countries and purposely refuse to do anything about it?

Yeah, you got your papers.  Fuck those other guys.
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