Randomville

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
GigaBook.com
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 ... 54 55 [56] 57 58 ... 60   Go Down

Author Topic: Random Political Musings  (Read 29369 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

euro60

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,419
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #825 on: February 05, 2017, 11:56:47 PM »

ZK, the US policy for decades has been to do nothing. Leave the illegal immigrants as they are (but for the obvious cases of deporation). I feel nothing has to change. Trump obviously feels differently but I disagree with that.
Logged
"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Markalot

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 208
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #826 on: February 14, 2017, 12:58:15 PM »

Not sure I comprehended every post but ...

We are supposed to be different from Europe.  It doesn't matter if every other country has closed borders, we are different.  I think everyone living here without a criminal record should get a path to citizenship.  It's the very foundation of this country.  I do think we need border security but the only 'limit' to immigration should about background and security checks, not some artificial number.

I reject the notion that just because i was born here or I immigrated legally somehow gives me a say in how other people immigrate. 

It's HUMAN rights.
Logged
-- Mark

Kwyjibo

  • Bringing Grumpy Back
  • City Elder
  • Posts: 10,403
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #827 on: February 14, 2017, 02:23:14 PM »

Like!
Logged
Baby, check this out, I've got something to say.  Man, it's so loud in here.

euro60

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,419
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #828 on: February 15, 2017, 07:38:29 PM »

Not sure I comprehended every post but ...

We are supposed to be different from Europe.
Europe? Try every country in the world.

Let's see how far you will get if one day you wake up and decide to move to any of the following countries, because damnit, it's your RIGHT to move there and live there:

-- New Zealand
-- Australia
-- Japan
-- Fiji
-- Brazil
-- South Africa
-- Indonesia
-- Singapore
-- India
-- etc.
-- etc.

NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD does what the US is doing relative to illegal immigrants.
Logged
"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 2,807
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #829 on: February 16, 2017, 01:45:50 PM »

You walk into your house.  There's a stranger there that you did not invite.  That's pretty messed up. 

So what we are saying is "Well, maybe they have a good reason to be here.  They haven't stolen anything.  In fact, they actually straightened up the kitchen.  Maybe we should make them a cup of team and sort of formally invite them in."

You're like "Wait a minute, what kind of crazy person treats an uninvited guest like they are an invited guest and not an intruder?"  Okay, fine.  That is a little odd on the surface.

But you know what's even more bizarre?  Trying to go about your business like nothing happened and there isn't a stranger in your house.

daytime drinking

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,168
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #830 on: February 20, 2017, 08:14:05 PM »

Not sure I comprehended every post but ...

We are supposed to be different from Europe.
Europe? Try every country in the world.

Let's see how far you will get if one day you wake up and decide to move to any of the following countries, because damnit, it's your RIGHT to move there and live there:

-- New Zealand
-- Australia
-- Japan
-- Fiji
-- Brazil
-- South Africa
-- Indonesia
-- Singapore
-- India
-- etc.
-- etc.

NO COUNTRY IN THE WORLD does what the US is doing relative to illegal immigrants.

that doesn't make it wrong or right
Logged
poach eggs, not elephants

euro60

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,419
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #831 on: February 20, 2017, 10:47:38 PM »

Daytime, your argument that "it doesn't make it right or wrong" is assuming that the rule of law simply doesn't apply anymore.

Let's see what happens if you decide to visit, say, Australia as a tourist and then decide to "overstay" your visa because you've decided that you want to stay in Australia permanently. Do you expect that you can simply stay there because it's your "right" to do so?
Logged
"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

dirk

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,388
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #832 on: February 20, 2017, 11:14:15 PM »

Daytime, your argument that "it doesn't make it right or wrong" is assuming that the rule of law simply doesn't apply anymore.

Let's see what happens if you decide to visit, say, Australia as a tourist and then decide to "overstay" your visa because you've decided that you want to stay in Australia permanently. Do you expect that you can simply stay there because it's your "right" to do so?
But aren't you suggesting the same thing by saying just let them stay? If we are talking rule of law, you should be demanding they all be deported, as that is the rule of law. To me, saying everyone can stay, but they have to hide and get no benefits is just exploiting the people who are here illegally. We want their cheap labor but we don't want to give them the benefits of actually being here and working like everyone else.
Logged
1+2+2+1
Gown removed carelessly. Head, less so. - Joss Whedon

Kwyjibo

  • Bringing Grumpy Back
  • City Elder
  • Posts: 10,403
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #833 on: February 21, 2017, 09:39:01 AM »

Daytime, your argument that "it doesn't make it right or wrong" is assuming that the rule of law simply doesn't apply anymore.

Let's see what happens if you decide to visit, say, Australia as a tourist and then decide to "overstay" your visa because you've decided that you want to stay in Australia permanently. Do you expect that you can simply stay there because it's your "right" to do so?

So the U.S. has to mirror Australia's laws?  What kind of logic is that?
Logged
Baby, check this out, I've got something to say.  Man, it's so loud in here.

daytime drinking

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 1,168
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #834 on: February 21, 2017, 04:39:42 PM »

euro, i wouldn't have the balls to overstay my visa anywhere.  i agree with you that (i think this is part of your argument) if the laws are on the books, these ones aren't so archaic that they shouldn't be enforced.  and it's also a pretty reasonable to have immigration laws for a country of any size.  i would have no problem if they really enforced the laws.  i wouldn't agree with it, but can't always get what you want.  i think borders are silly but i understand why people think they're necessary.  choosing not to enforce the law is just fine by me.  i really don't care if they don't pay taxes or get free health care or schooling.  i imagine if you met some of these people, they look like they're hardly cheating the system 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 04:42:45 PM by daytime drinking »
Logged
poach eggs, not elephants

Markalot

  • Citizen
  • Posts: 208
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #835 on: February 21, 2017, 10:55:21 PM »

I got lost somewhere.

When this country was founded once of the principles was that anyone could come it, we weren't a country >like many in< europe (at the time the only reference) that had a system of royalty and citizenship only granted by birthright.

So now that we have a lot of people and numerous generations it's not suddenly ok to say, wait, no more, this is ours now.

This is not to say it's ok for someone to squat in your house, it's not, but this is a HUMAN issue, not a US issue.  We treat these people as less than human, which is wrong IMO.  We treat these people as lacking basic rights to be here, in the land of human rights, because they weren't born here.  Might as well declare Trump king and start our own royal family if we're going to behave like those we broke away from. 

Unfortunately, like many of our original laws, it starts out rather ugly.

The United States Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787. Article I, section 8, clause 4 of the Constitution expressly gives the United States Congress the power to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.[1]

Pursuant to this power, Congress in 1790 passed the first naturalization law for the United States, the Naturalization Act of 1790. The law enabled those who had resided in the country for two years and had kept their current state of residence for a year to apply for citizenship. However it restricted naturalization to "free white persons" of "good moral character".


source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_laws_concerning_immigration_and_naturalization_in_the_United_States

This is the most original law on immigration, which said nothing about how to get in but rather that those of good moral character can become citizens.

My view is that this should be applied today, to any law abiding person (good moral character), and of course ignoring race or religion.

My view is also that if people pay taxes, regardless of status, they deserve the services government provides. 

It's not perfect, and hardly popular, but there it is. 


« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 11:48:40 PM by Markalot »
Logged
-- Mark

euro60

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,419
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #836 on: February 21, 2017, 11:44:20 PM »

This is why I love these boards.... We can express different opinions in a respectful way without demonizing others on a topic that is very, very complicated.

Here is what I think (in no particular order):

-- we need more legal immigrants, in particular the highly skilled workers that come in on the H-1B visa. Increase the cap for H-1B already! (Not likely to happen under Trump)

-- we should receive lots more refugees (as in: those fleeing deplorable situations such as the civil war in Syria, but that's just one example) than we do today. We are a rich country that can clearly accommodate that. (Not likely to happen under Trump)

-- I have little sympathy to those that are not refugees but want to move to the US simply because they want to come here (for a "better" life or whatever). Americans cannot move to Australia (just to name that country, but it applies to every other country) simply because they fancy a "better" life there.

-- I totally disagree that those who have come to come to the US illegally should have a path to US citizenship (and yes, I do realize that this mainly applies to the millions of Mexicans already here)

-- I also disagree that those millions who came here illegally should be deported, unless of course they have committed a crime (other than being here illegally). Just let them stay as they are.

-- I don't really disagree with Trump's concept of building a wall/fence/whatever to stop the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico. Does that make me a racist? I don't think so. People should come here legally, like every where else in the world.

Logged
"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Kwyjibo

  • Bringing Grumpy Back
  • City Elder
  • Posts: 10,403
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #837 on: February 22, 2017, 08:59:43 AM »

-- I totally disagree that those who have come to come to the US illegally should have a path to US citizenship (and yes, I do realize that this mainly applies to the millions of Mexicans already here)

But it doesn't.  Most of the people that come here illegally come from deeper in South America, not Mexico.

Anyway, this whole point is crazy.  Most of the people who are here illegally didn't start out that way, they came here on planes with visas and just didn't leave when they were supposed to (which is why the idea of a wall is batshit crazy).  Generally they don't leave because they establish a life here and are afraid that if they go home they won't be able to get back because our immigration processes are arbitrary and fucked up.  Why fuck with people like that?  There's room.  There are jobs (despite the idiots that think to the contrary).  It's our heritage to give them a path to citizenship. 

There is a reason they are here illegally, booting them out isn't solving anything.  But by all means lets turn our backs on them because you did it "right".  Congrats on your superiority.
Logged
Baby, check this out, I've got something to say.  Man, it's so loud in here.

Butter

  • Suffering from early-onset douchiness
  • City Elder
  • Posts: 9,779
  • 42!
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #838 on: February 22, 2017, 09:52:41 AM »

If we do start deporting millions of undocumented individuals en masse, then I hope you enjoy the massive inflation that will result.  And the downward pressure that would put on wages.  Wages are already stagnant... why would we even want to go down this road, economically?  I would imagine hundreds of thousands of jobs would go unfilled, and it would just result in worse service (for jobs in the service sector), higher prices, and potentially lower supply for the many products / projects that undocumented workers are involved in.

That just sounds great all around, please sign me up.
Logged

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 2,807
Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #839 on: February 22, 2017, 02:43:19 PM »

How about this as a compromise.

We take all the DACA students, H1B and student visa overstays.  We rent a bunch of cruise ships that are not registered in the US.  We put them all on the boats.  We sail them past the border into international waters.  Drop anchor for two hours.  During this time, DHS immediately grants or renews their visas.  Boats turn around and head right back to the US.

Now there's no complaint right?  They were booted out of the country, as they should have been for being here illegally.  And now they have been granted visas, as you say they should be.  And they have crossed into the country with legally so there can be no beef about the US allowing people in with permits.

Does this waste of several million dollars make you feel better?  Because if that's what it takes, fine.  Let's do that.
Pages: 1 ... 54 55 [56] 57 58 ... 60   Go Up