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Author Topic: Random Political Musings  (Read 100934 times)

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Butter

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1695 on: September 25, 2019, 03:25:14 PM »

Impeaching makes perfect sense, since he has done impeachable things.  Plus you have the bonus of making the GOP senators go on record as voting against impeachment, which could hurt especially if worse things come out later.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1696 on: September 25, 2019, 03:40:04 PM »

Because this is more than just about getting Trump out of the White House.  Shit's just gone way too far out of hand at this point.

Everything he's doing at this point is a gross and unconstitutional expansion of Presidential powers.  Asking a foreign government to try and dig up dirt and prosecute a political opponent based on no evidence is wrong whether or not there was a quid pro quo.  Refusing to obey whistleblower statutes is obstruction of justice.

Trump is an asshole, there's no helping that.  But he's also surrounded himself with guys like Barr who are big believers in both in a unitary executive branch and the power of the executive in general.  Their view is basically that the President can do whatever the fuck he wants.  And as long as Trump IS going to do whatever he wants regardless of the law, that's obvious.

There is no system of checks and balances if the legislative branch just yields all their power.  It's their job to stop executive overreach regardless of the popularity of the President.  If the Senate GOP won't do their jobs then at least the voters know to elect someone who will.

Ignore the specifics of any of the myriad of potential charges, and think about the defense the GOP is raising here.  It's a three part approach.  The first is that they don't have to hand over any information to anyone because the President has complete executive privilege.  The second is that even if information gets leaked, the only body capable of pursuing charges is the DoJ.... and the DoJ works for the President.  The third is that regardless of who presses charges, by law the President is immune from any criminal prosecution... and you need tp be found guilty of a criminal act for impeachment.

You keep saying you don't want to see a crazy leftwing guy replace Trump.  Well, this is how you're going to get one because there's going to be no checks on the executive at all.  And if the Dems refuse to do anything, then they're going to be seen as complicit.  You complain about how the GOP just rolled over for the extreme right... how is what the Democrats doing any different?  All they've done is wring their hands and talk about what a shitty guy Trump is, just like the establishment GOP did in 2016.

At some point, you have to make a stand.  It's your moral duty, and it's vital to the future of the country.  We need to know exactly which Senators are okay with this shit. 

The potential backlash to this is that now everyone is going to try to impeach every President.  I would say that's the lesser evil.  You can TRY to impeach, but you still need 2/3 of the Senate.  And it keeps impeachment as an option which means Congress keeps its power.  Too many impeachment attempts is a lesser evil at this point than letting the executive go unchecked.

Yes, it's probably a bad political move but doing what is right takes precedence.  It may very well cost the Democrats the Presidential election and Congress but if that's the case then this country is already beyond saving.

notoriouspbake

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1697 on: September 25, 2019, 05:09:07 PM »

then this country is already beyond saving.

I fear this is already correct.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1698 on: September 26, 2019, 12:01:34 PM »

Why do people keep asking Ken Starr about his thoughts on impeachment?  Like, seriously there is no one in the entire world who has less credibility on this issue than Starr. 



daytime drinking

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1699 on: September 28, 2019, 09:23:34 AM »

Quote
Asking a foreign government to try and dig up dirt and prosecute a political opponent based on no evidence is wrong whether or not there was a quid pro quo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/24/democrats-investigation-might-do-more-hurt-biden-than-trump/

i honestly don't know how this would properly be investigated.  seems to me like the president's personal lawyer wouldn't be the one to orchestrate the task



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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1700 on: September 28, 2019, 11:04:07 PM »

Marc Thiessen, lol.

Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1701 on: September 29, 2019, 04:05:38 PM »

One of the weird but fascinating things about Trump supporters is how they dismiss everything as Trump being a businessman.  And how they voted for him because he was a  "business man."

Apparently this is how we believe CEOs should be running businesses.  Gee, I wonder why we are losing to China.

Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1702 on: October 04, 2019, 04:31:16 PM »

I really don't get why Trump would publicly ask China to investigate Biden.

He was-- as usual-- trotting out like 12 different defenses on the Ukraine thing.  But 11 of them were some kind of spin on "It never happened/witch hunt."  But now we know he has asked foreign countries deliberately and specifically to investigate Biden, all of his defenses are all moot except for "It's not illegal."

Okay, fine.  But why China?  That's the one country that could cost him votes even if his supporters think it's totally legal to ask foreign nations to investigate political opponents.  He's spent two years hammering home that China is untrustworthy, evil, screwing us over in trade talks, and the biggest US enemy in the world. 

Farmers have been taking a beating over tariffs, but they still stand by Trump because they feel like they have to stop China.  But now it turns out that instead of playing hardball for US farmers and US trade, Trump's been negotiation over a Biden investigation instead?  They're going to be pissed. 

Pick any other country in the world.  Even Mexico.  I mean, Mexico would also a horrible idea, but still not as horrible as China.  But yeah, France.  Germany.  UK.  Zimbabwe.  Urkutsk even if it's not a real country.  I mean, you're just making shit up anyway so it's not like there actually has to be an actual connection between Biden and wherever.  You can literally pick any country in the world, and you pick China? 

It's all so unnecessary.  Biden isn't even a great target.  No one on the left cares if Biden has to go.  They mostly don't like him that much already.  They'll happy throw him under the bus and say he did something awful if it means Trump goes to. 

You want to galvanize your base and really piss off the left, go after Bernie or Warren.  You don't need a foreign government, either.  Just get the DoJ to investigate them.  Is it unethical?  Sure.  Possibly illegal?  Yeah.  But you've already made the GOP and their supporters buy into a unitary executive so they're not going to bat an eye at it.

Paco

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1703 on: October 04, 2019, 05:12:14 PM »

Because he's an unhinged nut job who has been emboldened by the milque-toast Meuller report who see no consequences from any of his actions. Fer Chrissakes, he called Zelensky the day after his testimony.  And now he thinks since he solicits China in front of the cameras, "look, I'm not hiding it, so it's legal!"  And his base continues to eat it up. Soliciting foreign influence? Great! No Problem! As long as we win at any cost! That's stigginit to the libs!
And the Repubs are complicit if they don't go along with the impeachment. This bozo should have been 25thd a long time ago.
Right now, the best bet is if he strokes out from the pressure. But I don't count on that. The good die young, so Metamucallini will probably outlive us all.

fuck, now I need a drink.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1704 on: October 04, 2019, 11:31:44 PM »

If you had all the power in the world and a cult worshipping base to boot, would you waste it on picking a fight with Joe Biden and China?

Trump is entirely devoid of morals and an egomaniac and all of that, sure.  But he's not THAT stupid.

Most of the trouble he gets himself into is because he doesn't give a crap.  He knows nothing about policy or what is happening so a reporter asks him a question and he makes something up.  Yes, he's lazy but that doesn't cover it.

There are much easier ways to piss off liberals and/or impress his base and/or self-sabotage he way out if office so he can quit and play golf and play the victim.

I think he does it because he gets off on power.  Not power over his enemies, though that us part if it.  But power in general.  Like, let's see what I can get away with, and then I know how powerful I am.  Which means he likes making his own followers look like chumps.  Look how the GOP and Fox now have to bend over backwards and humiliate themselves trying to defend him as he keeps punching holes in their defenses of him.  More and more, I think forcing his allies to look bad is more motivating to him than attacking enemies.

If liberals think he's a dick, who cares?  They think most Republicans are dicks.  It's not a challenge.  The true measure of power for him is to make the biggest mess possible and watch people have to react.  Someone going "Hey, dickhead.  Stop." And not being able to stop him is semi-gratifying.  But not as gratifying as watching the ones who actually try and clean it up.  Who has been forced to "bend the knee" more-- Democrats or Republicans?  In my opinion there's no question its Republicans.

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1705 on: October 09, 2019, 01:40:29 PM »

Not that anyone brought it up recently but

Constitutional crisis. In political science, a constitutional crisis is a problem or conflict in the function of a government that the political constitution or other fundamental governing law is perceived to be unable to resolve.


Time for the courts to decide if Trump has to cooperate, which IMO he clearly does.  If the supreme court should rule otherwise then we are fucked. 
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1706 on: October 09, 2019, 02:59:24 PM »

I could see the courts requiring some kind of formal process that includes a majority vote on the floor before they can subpeona Trump.  That seems kind of fair.  Maybe sutting some kind of reasonable minor limitations in place.  Like you don't want Congress so just keep issuing bullshit subpeona after subpeona to prevent a President from the other party from getting anything done.

But yeah, given the specifics of this current case where there's whistleblowers and some pretty clear evidence etc. if Congress votes to open impeachment proceedings and Trump refuses to show up that should be unconstitutional.  Thing is, the Supreme Court has ample flexibility to rule that Trump is wrong and still not do jackshit about it. 

Because if you subpeona Trump and Trump doesn't show, what's the remedy?  The court doesn't have the power to remove a President from office.  So it's essentially a punt.  And then what is Congress going to do?  They're already impeaching him, so it's not like Trump has anything to lose legally.  He can't be like, double-impeached. 

I suspect that's what the court will do.  They'll rule that Trump is doing something bad but that they expressly do not have the power to do anything about it.  That way they take no responsibility.  Wouldn't surprise me if they just outright refuse to hear the case, citing a lack of jurisdiction/judicial power.

Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1707 on: October 10, 2019, 01:39:49 PM »

And now this is a true constitutional crises because there is literally almost nothing in the constitution about impeachment other than the house has absolute authority to do it.  So, by a simple vote, they could vote to impeach which is their right.  The senate could try and not convict, which is their right, and we have no investigation and no removal from office.  The crises is that the constitution doesn't say how to solve any of these problems.   This is either silly or genius.  The dems should have held a vote they would have won to remove the illegitimacy BS as a talking point.  Do it just like Nixon.  Trump would make up something different but you'd have had a vote and a permanent record.

Did you see the Fox news poll results?



Over 10% of Trump voters want him impeached and removed.  lol
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 01:42:30 PM by Markalot »
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1708 on: October 10, 2019, 02:20:52 PM »

I do kind of side with the GOP on this.  Of course it was the GOP who opened the door to all this subpeona power when they went after Clinton on Benghazi so they're being hypocritical as hell.  But regardless of the GOP, I do think that there should be some kind of formal vote and process for impeachment.

But legally, I don't know.  Like you said, the constitution doesn't deal with process, it deals with balancing power.  The power to impeach is delegated to Congress and they have subpeona powers.  Beyond that, Congress sets their own rules. It's a problem if the executive and judicial branches start telling Congress how they're supposed to run their own internal decision making.  So yeah, it's a nightmare of various constitutional crises.

Politically, I'm fine with the Democrats slow-rolling this.  Because the one thing about Trump is that he's a super-awful liar.  He's cringe-y even for his supporters.  IMO, it was the same thing on collusion.  I think Trump "colluded" for all intents and purposes, but it was always going to be hard to prove and there was unlikely to be a smoking gun.  When the Mueller report came out, it was disappointing.  But until the report came out, Trump kept making things worse and worse for himself by behaving like an idiot.

This is where you and I differ.  I think it's useful to keep Trump twisting, let him say and do stupider and stupider things until at some point even his supporters will be like "You know what?  I'm tired of this shit."  They'll get irritated that the wall is not being built, etc. and even if they mostly blame the media, they'll also realize that so much of what happens to Trump is  self-inflicted.  We know that Tucker Carlson, Ann Coulter, and Ben Shapiro think Trump is nincompoop.  They're only backing him because they think he's the only one forwarding their shitty agendas. At some point, they'll just be like "Man, there's got to be someone else who can do this better."

Of course the risk you run with this strategy, which is maybe what you seem to think will happen is that everyone gets used to the chaos and just tunes it all out and stops reacting.  I see the point.  I would agree that's a big potential risk.

My take on it is that people not reacting is a plus because so much of what Trump does relies on just lashing out and emotional response.  The Democrats have 500 reasons to hate Trump just because of his policies.  They don't really need to hate him as a person, though they do, and they are I think at this point fired up enough to get out and vote for Trump.  You don't want to overcook that stew by rousing them into such a frenzy they start arguing amongst themselves.

And if what Trump does stops being controversial, it really hurts him with his base since trolling the world and working themselves into a frenzied anger is their MO.

But I mean, we're deep in Crazy Town now.  Every move at this point is both risky and unpredictable.  When it's all over, people will go back and try to Monday Morning QB the trends and behaviors and try and explain how it all happened.  But honestly, people have just thrown logic and reason out the window and anything can happen next.  There won't be a reason.  It's a dice roll.





Markalot

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Re: Random Political Musings
« Reply #1709 on: October 10, 2019, 06:23:41 PM »

I don't like making him twist because the dems will fold.  They have the big tent now and the republicans will keep turning the screws until enough of them fold it won't matter.  The NY Times  The Daily podcast is at times really good and at other times maddeningly bad, but the episode before last was quite good in my opinion.  Oct 9th was very well reported, and showed some of the issues dems are facing. 

The Dead Chicken strategy is just depressing, but shows how effective what the republicans are doing can be.  I didn't like the reporting and the assumption of guilt, but it doesn't get in the way of effectively revealing how they see things and what they do to de-legitimize the dems. 

https://www.nytimes.com/column/the-daily
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 06:25:18 PM by Markalot »
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