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Author Topic: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?  (Read 13028 times)

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Atzend

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2012, 10:57:16 PM »

i imagine cavemen were the least generous people ever.  

Obviously you weren't a sociology major.  Try reading a non-fiction book sometime.

And you weren't an anthropology major.  

Quote from: daytime drinking
the topic i was addressing was the poverty cycle and how it only hurts people in the long run.  are you suggesting that people born poor are completely helpless, that the only way for them to survive is through handouts?  we're only making it harder for people to get out of the struggle by treating them as second class citizens.  i understand why people don't agree with me because it's a tough concept to accept.  the great society put forth by lbj was great intentions, though the consequences are dire.  responsibility kicked the bucket when we became compassionate.

I will argue with you. Here's the tough concept for many to accept:

The argument you are making regarding poverty and second class citizenry are symptoms of institutionalized social ideologies and assumptions over long periods of time that are imbedded so deeply into our (and other) cultures they are typically ignored and assumed obsolete so the problem must be rooted in the individual and not the society as a whole.  Ayn Rand and other similar conservative viewpoints favor "social" darwinism.  Attempting to apply a naturally occurring and random evolutionary process to social constructs is an incorrect assumption.  I agree, it is a persons responsibility to themselves, those close to them and society to make an attempt to contribute to not only further themselves, but the group. However, many are stuck based on lack of economic opportunity and perpetuate cycles not because of a reliance on handouts, but geographical location, race, gender, economic levels, social status and lack of support (emotionally, mentally, and financially).  There are people who are lazy and selfish, but there may be much more to it that may lead them to embody those behaviors besides perceived government enabling.  There is a cycle of poverty, but it's rooted in much more than a case of "I don't wanna, cause I don't have to". To believe that there is one simple cause to why those in lower socio-economic situations choose a path that does not promote them to achieve upward social mobility relies on one simple solution that encompasses a footwear tagline "just do it!" is like holding an empty wrapping paper tube up to one eye.  There is no one cause nor one solution.  The problem is as complex as each individual who is in an unwanted position of poverty, second class-citizenry, and ignorance.  





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Kwyjibo

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2012, 07:57:08 AM »

Imma sit back and let people that know what they're talking about argue from now on.  Bravo, Jess.
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Cockney Rebel

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2012, 08:03:34 AM »



Funnily enough I found this in one of my folders the other day...
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Markalot

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2012, 09:07:35 AM »

I have no well organized thoughts on any of this.

Atlas Shrugged is a work of fiction with the audience being small minded people who like to think the world will be better if we just did this ....

Regardless of what this is, regardless of who wrote it, regardless of how good the book or the speech was, this never works by itself.

So anyone who argues welfare is horrible and everyone ends up dependent is wrong.

Anyone who argues welfare is critical to our society and works well is wrong.

This country was founded on compromise and compromise is the only way it works.

People hate Obamacare but love most of the pieces.  I want to see someone try and repeal the entire thing including lifetime limits on sick kids insurance, pre-existing condition protection, and the like.

As a manager, when someone comes to me and tells me they don't like something I ask for their idea.  It comes as no surprise most people just like to whine instead of solve problems.  If Romney can't articulate a solution to the problems in our economy, much less the healthcare system, he will lose.

Going back to the thread topic, Republicans have been taken over the the religious right and most modern religions seem more focused on hate and division than anything else.  Apparently hate brings in more donations than love.  Of course there are huge exceptions to this, but those exceptions are not politically active.

I am a registered republican, still.  I hate most people so it seems to fit.  :)
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Kwyjibo

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2012, 10:21:30 AM »

As a manager, when someone comes to me and tells me they don't like something I ask for their idea.  It comes as no surprise most people just like to whine instead of solve problems. 

Ain't that the truth.  I've been very guilty of this over the years and it never even occurred to me until I was moved to a new manager that actually manages her people.  Most managers just listen to the whining and disregard it and the person walks away having no chance of getting any relief for their issue, because they've not been given the opportunity to be a part of the solution, they were just written off as a whiner.  It sucks to go to your boss and get your problem put back on you, but if you don't have a solution, or you think it's too much work to do what needs to be done, then it wasn't that much of a problem and you should have kept it to yourself.
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daytime drinking

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2012, 11:37:22 AM »


Quote from: daytime drinking
the topic i was addressing was the poverty cycle and how it only hurts people in the long run.  are you suggesting that people born poor are completely helpless, that the only way for them to survive is through handouts?  we're only making it harder for people to get out of the struggle by treating them as second class citizens.  i understand why people don't agree with me because it's a tough concept to accept.  the great society put forth by lbj was great intentions, though the consequences are dire.  responsibility kicked the bucket when we became compassionate.

I will argue with you. Here's the tough concept for many to accept:

The argument you are making regarding poverty and second class citizenry are symptoms of institutionalized social ideologies and assumptions over long periods of time that are imbedded so deeply into our (and other) cultures they are typically ignored and assumed obsolete so the problem must be rooted in the individual and not the society as a whole.

i'm not suggesting the individual is completely responsible for their situation.  massive government intrusion has corrupted their lives.  

Quote
Ayn Rand and other similar conservative viewpoints favor "social" darwinism.  Attempting to apply a naturally occurring and random evolutionary process to social constructs is an incorrect assumption.

in a world void of corruption, i would agree with straight up social darwinism.  but in the world we live in with big business tugging big government in the backseat of a beat up pinto, that isn't the case. a world with unfettered capitalism, it could only make sense.  

Quote
I agree, it is a persons responsibility to themselves, those close to them and society to make an attempt to contribute to not only further themselves, but the group. However, many are stuck based on lack of economic opportunity and perpetuate cycles not because of a reliance on handouts, but geographical location, race, gender, economic levels, social status and lack of support (emotionally, mentally, and financially).  There are people who are lazy and selfish, but there may be much more to it that may lead them to embody those behaviors besides perceived government enabling.  There is a cycle of poverty, but it's rooted in much more than a case of "I don't wanna, cause I don't have to". To believe that there is one simple cause to why those in lower socio-economic situations choose a path that does not promote them to achieve upward social mobility relies on one simple solution that encompasses a footwear tagline "just do it!" is like holding an empty wrapping paper tube up to one eye.  There is no one cause nor one solution.  The problem is as complex as each individual who is in an unwanted position of poverty, second class-citizenry, and ignorance.  

i read a playboy article a few months ago about a town called war, it's in the hills of west virginia.  it's a town of less than a 1,000 people, half below the poverty line.  huge meth/ painpill problem.  the article didn't mention it, but i think i safely assume that a majority of those folks survived off of government assistance.  even with assistance the government can't help them.  what do you do?  there are countless towns like this.  when i mentioned a few posts earlier that the best way to tackle the cycle of poverty is to cut folks off that can chiefly apply here, in war.  will it work?  no idea.  maybe folks will wise up and move making war another ghost town.  

i could very well be wrong, maybe these causes you established as the root of cyclical poverty (i'm not denying that they aren't a factor) are the reasons.   i could very well be overestimating the amount of people who abuse welfare.  but, who's doing anything about it?  
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Kwyjibo

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2012, 11:58:49 AM »

i read a playboy article a few months ago..

A finer trade journal there never was...
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daytime drinking

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2012, 12:07:02 PM »

i read a playboy article a few months ago..

A finer trade journal there never was...

i love playboy.  in the middle of a richard dawkins interview right now
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Atzend

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2012, 12:58:57 PM »

Social darwinism is not viable in any political situation. It's a poorly constructed ideology brought about by a few theorists that has no practical implications. 

I'm familiar with similar stories to the one you referenced which ties into the larger point I was attempting to make.  The issues these people face are not limited to a reliance on assistance programs.  You are correct that govt help does not fix the underlying issues.  It's easy to just state that someone should move if living in an economically depressed area, but that is a case of easier said than done.  Moving costs money.  In rural towns it is not uncommon for most of the immediate and external family to live within the area limiting external support in more economically diverse areas. It's a catch 22 that leaves many stuck and depressed which feeds addiction.  Even if someone can find a job in the area it allows them to barely survive, but never save enough to leave the areas where most of their support system resides.
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daytime drinking

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2012, 01:17:11 PM »

Social darwinism is not viable in any political situation. It's a poorly constructed ideology brought about by a few theorists that has no practical implications.  

I'm familiar with similar stories to the one you referenced which ties into the larger point I was attempting to make.  The issues these people face are not limited to a reliance on assistance programs.  You are correct that govt help does not fix the underlying issues.  It's easy to just state that someone should move if living in an economically depressed area, but that is a case of easier said than done.  Moving costs money.  In rural towns it is not uncommon for most of the immediate and external family to live within the area limiting external support in more economically diverse areas. It's a catch 22 that leaves many stuck and depressed which feeds addiction.  Even if someone can find a job in the area it allows them to barely survive, but never save enough to leave the areas where most of their support system resides.

so what do you do?  i'm at least offering a solution.  maybe not the best or sound, but it's an idea.  you ever read the grapes of wrath?  even in the depression people tried to better their situation.  from your post it sounds as if these people have absolutely no chance whatsoever.  their back is against the wall and the wall is collapsing. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 01:29:33 PM by daytime drinking »
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Atzend

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2012, 07:03:03 PM »

But a solution isn't going to fix the problems.   Some solutions would be better overall education, more affordable preventative healthcare, better drug and mental health treatment (as opposed to incarceration), initiative to create sustainable communities and jobs in economically depressed areas (agriculture, better control over their own natural resources), decent wages, benefits, and work/family balance provided to those with jobs, and I'm sure I'll think of more later.  But all these, much like your solution, are easy for me to suggest, but far more difficult to implement.

For some their back is against the wall, but the walls not crumbling and falling so they can get out and see or build something new.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't read the Grapes of Wrath, but it's on my list sometime after I finish Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States.  I can only handle one upbeat readable romp at a time.

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frizgolf

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2012, 09:50:14 AM »

But a solution isn't going to fix the problems.   Some solutions would be better overall education, more affordable preventative healthcare, better drug and mental health treatment (as opposed to incarceration), initiative to create sustainable communities and jobs in economically depressed areas (agriculture, better control over their own natural resources), decent wages, benefits, and work/family balance provided to those with jobs, and I'm sure I'll think of more later.  But all these, much like your solution, are easy for me to suggest, but far more difficult to implement.

For some their back is against the wall, but the walls not crumbling and falling so they can get out and see or build something new.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't read the Grapes of Wrath, but it's on my list sometime after I finish Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States.  I can only handle one upbeat readable romp at a time.


I hate that I read this reply and heard a cash register *ching* in the back of my head with every comma in your second sentence.
Who pays for all that, at least for War, WV?
I mean, I don't mind social programs that work, but when they keep pouring money down a drain there needs to be some kind of "three strikes" death sentence for aid.
Who determines what works?
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lutz

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2012, 04:46:32 PM »

But a solution isn't going to fix the problems.   Some solutions would be better overall education, more affordable preventative healthcare, better drug and mental health treatment (as opposed to incarceration), initiative to create sustainable communities and jobs in economically depressed areas (agriculture, better control over their own natural resources), decent wages, benefits, and work/family balance provided to those with jobs, and I'm sure I'll think of more later.  But all these, much like your solution, are easy for me to suggest, but far more difficult to implement.

For some their back is against the wall, but the walls not crumbling and falling so they can get out and see or build something new.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't read the Grapes of Wrath, but it's on my list sometime after I finish Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States.  I can only handle one upbeat readable romp at a time.


I hate that I read this reply and heard a cash register *ching* in the back of my head with every comma in your second sentence.
Who pays for all that, at least for War, WV?
I mean, I don't mind social programs that work, but when they keep pouring money down a drain there needs to be some kind of "three strikes" death sentence for aid.
Who determines what works?
This is the difference between Scandinavia and the US. Scandinavians are happy to pay higher taxes for a better quality of life, while Americans feel they're being robbed.
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notoriouspbake

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2012, 07:19:01 PM »

riddle me this: for behaviors that are the same (cheating the government for personal gain), why are welfare cheats demonized while those who find and take advantage of tax loopholes are considered to be stalwarts of the business/finiancial community?

either way, both behaviors are denying revenue from being in the pot for the greater good.
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Atzend

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Re: Do Republicans Hate Everyone?
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2012, 09:31:31 PM »

riddle me this: for behaviors that are the same (cheating the government for personal gain), why are welfare cheats demonized while those who find and take advantage of tax loopholes are considered to be stalwarts of the business/finiancial community?

either way, both behaviors are denying revenue from being in the pot for the greater good.

I've had a similar argument going through my head regarding laziness. I find it hard to believe that a greater percentage of poor people are lazier than any other economic group.  Some people are lazy no matter their socio-economic situation. However, some can afford to be lazy, selfish, and mooch without being condemned and demonized.  The statement above sums up a better point. 
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