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[Kwyjibo]

Do I think the situations are possible?  Not really.  There are a lot of bad governments in recorded history that tried to abuse their people and they all got taken out, or are in the process thereof.  I really don't think that such a situation is ever going to persist without opposition by groups of people from within or by other societies.  Pretty much in direct contrast to the way the books you've mentioned played out.

You might as well be asking me if I think Roland conquering the Dark Tower is possible.

[daytime drinking]

Do I think the situations are possible?  Not really.  There are a lot of bad governments in recorded history that tried to abuse their people and they all got taken out, or are in the process thereof.  I really don't think that such a situation is ever going to persist without opposition by groups of people from within or by other societies.  Pretty much in direct contrast to the way the books you've mentioned played out.

You might as well be asking me if I think Roland conquering the Dark Tower is possible.

anthem was created as a reaction to soviet style oppression.  communism still flourishes, though cloaked. china recognizes the virtues of capitalism though still control their people.  and i'm not gonna say obama is a socialist, i'm not that guy, but he loves the government making our choices.  and it's not just him, just any liberal elite who knows what's best for us. 

[Butter]

so y'all read the book?  i love how that's the part that was quoted from my post

I don't really want a debate, but I am surprised that you're surprised.  For being a "libertarian", you sure picked an ultra-conservative paean to specifically mention as a turning point in your political awakening.

[daytime drinking]

so y'all read the book?  i love how that's the part that was quoted from my post

I don't really want a debate, but I am surprised that you're surprised.  For being a "libertarian", you sure picked an ultra-conservative paean to specifically mention as a turning point in your political awakening.

well, whom should i have chosen?  the book spoke to me.  if i hadn't mentioned her name, this thread would be silent.  but that's the only thing y'all have latched onto.  nothing else from my post.  but i welcome spirited debate!

[Buzzstein]

Atlas Shrugged is nothing but propaganda. Rand's sense of morality was extreme and completely backwards. Some selfishness is good. A lot of selfishness is not. I'm disabled and “mooch” off the government. It's easy for someone who doesn't rely on help from the government to be a libertarian. It's the concept of free market capitalism that is idealistically foolish, not modern liberalism.

[daytime drinking]

Atlas Shrugged is nothing but propaganda. Rand's sense of morality was extreme and completely backwards. Some selfishness is good. A lot of selfishness is not. I'm disabled and “mooch” off the government. It's easy for someone who doesn't rely on help from the government to be a libertarian. It's the concept of free market capitalism that is idealistically foolish, not modern liberalism.

it's not propaganda.  buzz, i haven't met you, but i am aware of your condition.  on the other hand, you're a pretty articulate guy who knows fuck tons more about music than i do.  hell, you know a lot more about politics than i do.  you're able to type that message, surly you make some bucks offa that.  ever read or seen the diving bell and the butterfly?  man, i can't preach to you.  i don't know what it's like.  all i'm saying is that it's possible.  make it back to cincinnati brother, and i'll buy ya a beer

[jcarwash31]

is it so crazy to expect people to be responsible for themselves?     

No, it isn't, but personal responsibility will only get you so far in this world.

is it so crazy not to have a welfare state?       

It probably is. A whole lot of people are just a lay off and a significant medical situation away from the poor house and all the personal responsibility in the world won't help you out. There are plenty of good, hard working people who work multiple jobs and still can't make ends meet, but apparently they aren't worthy of help.

but how can you deny the fundamental fact that people can't do a damn thing about the situation they were born into, except prosper.   what's stopping you?     

This statement is so dismissive.  We all need to recognize how big of a role the situation we were born into played into where we are now.  I was born male, middle class, and white (y'all don't know what it's like). The expectation for me from a very early age was that I'd go to college and get a good job somewhere. There was never a question of "if I go to college". It was always "when I go to college".  All of my siblings went to college; 2 of them are engineers, and 1 has a PHD.  Honestly, I don't think I really had to work all that hard to get where I am.

Others are born into incredible wealth and contribute nothing of value to society and can be complete train wrecks in public, but yet are still held up and revered in some weird way.  Why are they more valued than someone born into poverty who managed to make it past the age of 19 without going to jail or being killed in a neighborhood where the odds of this are slim?

The implication of your statement is that if you are poor, then you are either too lazy or too stupid and you are a leach on society.  This simply is not true.

[lutz]

selfishness as a virtue, absolutely.  there's the brilliance in it.  if everyone put others before them, no one would get anywhere. being selfish is not a bad thing.  arrogance does not have to be a bad thing.  greed does not have to be a bad thing.  if it weren't for those things, give me an idea where mankind would be?  and to punish those who create?  those that always strive for first place?  give me an idea of a world not fueled by competition.  competition is the hallmark of genius.

If cavemen had behaved like this then the human race would not exist. In a society you help each other: by sharing childcare duties, hunting together, staying awake at night to look out for danger while others sleep. Selfishness doesn't help anyone in the long run.

[Poncho]

What the heck?

WRONG FORUM NEW BOSS GUY


Poor form.  Poor form.

[MattD]

Not gonna argue with you Poncho.  Never meant to start this kind of debate here....  Removing this thread in at midnight kiddies, back to music and fun stuff.

[lutz]

As an admin, can't you move it to the Politics forum?

[Ella Minnow Pea]

You should be able to move it. At least that's a feature on other boards. It's not a bad discussion, it's just in the wrong place. We had another discussion on Rand there already.

As far as the original question goes, the ones in my immediate family don't hate everyone. Of course, they are of the fiscal conservative, smaller federal government (state & local is okay) mindset. I read a great book this year - Taft 2012. It's amazing to think there were once Progressive Republicans. Sigh...

[Juliana]

You might as well be asking me if I think Roland conquering the Dark Tower is possible.

a set of books you'll never finish
*gauntlet, thrown*

[trixi]

So MattD, on the political front, how many ads is Indiana getting on TV?  Here in OH, we've been seeing them for months to the point I don't pay attention to any of them anymore.  A weekend trip to PA gave me a much enjoyed respite. 

[va-vacious]

As far as the original question goes, the ones in my immediate family don't hate everyone. Of course, they are of the fiscal conservative, smaller federal government (state & local is okay) mindset. I read a great book this year - Taft 2012. It's amazing to think there were once Progressive Republicans. Sigh...

Yes, they don't hate everyone, but I really freaked our grandmother out in the last presidential election when she said she didn't like McCain and I told her to actually look at Obama's position. She told all the residents at her retirement home about it.  The next time I visited, one of the ladies called me over to her lunch table, pulled aside the collar of her jacket and showed me her Obama pin. "I have to hide it around here, " she said, "Noone here would understand!"  I thought that was cute.

And I have several Republican friends from childhood who are loving and compassionate even to those that the party seems to hate. They still spout the party line, but their actions are different (sometimes)