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Author Topic: FC Cincinnati  (Read 5225 times)

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euro60

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 4,154
Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2019, 11:21:35 PM »

We went to the FCC away game at Columbus last night. What a blast. Had never been to the MAPFRE stadium before (although I had driven by it on I-71 many times). There are no bars anywhere close, it's basically in the middle of nowhere, some 5 miles from downtown Columbus on the State Fair Grounds. So you roll in, and gotta pay $15, and there is tailgating everywhere. We got there at 6 (for a 7:30 kick-off), hung out tailgating, and then headed over to the stadium at 7. The MAPFRE stadium is a dump. As bare bones as you'll ever find. We had scalped our seats on StubHub and were seated amidst plenty of Crew fans. No issues whatsoever, and there were LOTS of FCC fans at the sold-out game (think Steelers invading PBS for the Bengals). The game was crazy, FCC going up 0-2 in the first 25 min, then hanging on for dear life for a 2-2 tie. The weather was perfect and the atmosphere was great all around for this "Hell Is Real" derby. The place ROCKED. This is the best that MLS has to offer. We thoroughly enjoyed it all around. Can't wait for the return game in 2 weeks at Nippert.

As a long-time European soccer-snob that I am, I can't understand those that remain skeptical/indignant about MLS. It is real and it LIVES, certainly in the FCC universe. Check this out:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/08/10/highlights-columbus-crew-sc-vs-fc-cincinnati-august-10-2019?autoplay=true

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019/08/11/crew-sc-fc-cincy-say-hell-real-rise-after-wild-derby
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 11:30:50 PM by euro60 »
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Kwyjibo

  • Bringing Grumpy Back
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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2019, 12:40:39 PM »

I think you over estimate the enthusiasm for FCC.  Outside of a few boards folk, like yourself, I don't know a single person that gives a shit bout FCC or MLS.  Furthermore, I'd bet if you did a random survey around the city you'd find that at least 50% are barely aware that the team is even a thing and the majority of those probably don't know much more about it than the drama behind the west end stadium deal.

Just because all teams fuck the community doesn't mean Cincinnati had a duty to bend over for yet another franchise.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2019, 01:01:04 PM »

Because MLS loses tons of money, euro60.  It's not that complicated.

The MLS only stays afloat by generating additional revenue two ways.  One is via ponzi scheme-- each new team has to pay the league to join, so they keep adding new teams.  The other is USSF money.  The National teams generate revenue for USSF who redirect it to MLS.  And considering the men's team sucks and the majority of National team money is now generated by the women, it doesn't seem very fair or sustainable for the USWNT to exist solely as a funding mechanism for MLS.

MLS is still operating like a start up.  They're betting they can start generating a profit before they drain all the funding.  I don't see that happening considering they have already grown a lot and *still* can't generate a profit, and because the international reach of other leagues is growing.  And to top it all off, the league is ultimately managed by the incompetents at USSF who can't doing anything right.

euro60

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 4,154
Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2019, 11:43:40 PM »

I don't know... am I living in a bubble when FCC averages 28,000 per game? If so, 27,999 others are too. I'm guessing you haven't been to an FCC game. And how would that be different from, say, the Reds, who are averaging 23,000 per game this year? Obviously the Reds have been around much longer and play lots more games (and get much more TV money), I totally get that, so maybe this is not a fair comparison, but still...

ZK, I think you are dead wrong about the MLS "survival" chances. Interest in soccer in this country keeps on building, and MLS is simply riding that wave. No way that MLS is going to crash and burn (as some of the earlier US soccer leagues did). There is simply too much a demand for it to go away.

I may be over-enthusiastic about FCC, but that is because I love soccer and now I have here in Cincy what I had never dreamed about just 5 or 10 years ago. Growing up in Belgium I supported a team in the top league (Lokeren) in good and bad times (and still do). They averaged 7-8000 per game when I lived in Belgium, and that was not great, but not bad either (for Belgian standards). But I relished going to the games with friends/family. After all these years, I have found the same with FCC.
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,656
Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2019, 01:57:05 AM »

The difference to me is what Kwyjibo is saying.  Those 28,000 fans are pretty much all the fans there are. 

Right?  Like, I will attend zero Cubs games this year.  But Iím still a fan.  I will watch NBA games, or NFL games between two teams I care nothing about just because I like football. 

Itís why I think Cincy should have stayed in a lower division.  The fans that do support the team are really enthusiastic and hardcore.  It's kind of a cult (not bad cult, like cult film cult) thing. 

Look.  Cincinnati vs Columbus is not a real Derby.  Neither team has a history of denying the other team titles.  Theyíve never even played before.  So no one cares.  Except for the supporters of both sides who decided their team NEEDS a derby and rival because it is more fun that way. You did not invade Columbusís pitch.  You were welcomed.  In fact, they desperately need you because they need to sell tickets and have their team seem legit so the team does not get moved to Austin.

You know who their rival was before you?  Toronto.  Why?  Who cares about Toronto?  Because it was the closest city they had and MLS decided to make a fake Cup to be exchanged between the teams.

The games are kind of like less sporting events than they are cosplay conventions.  One side plays the role of FC Cincinnati fans and one side plays Crew fans.  What do football fans do?  Oh they have tifos and act crazy so that is what we will do.  Thatís admittedly a bit of exaggeration, but you get the idea.

Thatís why I think that FC Cincinnati should have stayed where they were.  They have a strong cult following.  The other teams in that division have smaller, but also strong followers.  So they can sustain that level of attendance.  Maybe long enough for the sport to really grow.  If Cincinnati plays Columbus ten times a year every year in a league or division where the games matter then after awhile you get real popularity.

It takes time for a team and sport to really soak into the culture.  The MLS and is trying too hard to force this to happen.  30 teams is ridiculous.  Columbus is going to move or fold, then you have to start over. 

I think you can make a case that interest in soccer is growing, but MLS is not able to tap into it.  There is a Richmond Manchester United supporters club.  Thereís a Liverpool bar.  Tottenham is popular amongst the hipsters.  No one gives a shit about DC United, which is our closest MLS team.

MLS games get lower ratings than Premier League games, and Liga MX.  Something like 80% of the revenue is generated from league attendance.  Which tells you that support runs deep but not wide.  In order to try and fix this, they just keep adding new teams.  But every time they do, the rules change and rivalries change itís like a new thing. 

Cincinnati has the fan base to support a their teams. Many of these other cities donít or wonít.  Theyíll drag FC Cincinnati (and the city taxpayers) down with them.  I do not like USSF, but I do think MLS commissioner Don Garber is a pretty smart dude.  Heís doing what he can to keep MLS afloat, but that necessarily means short-term survival strategies because the US really is not ready for big-time soccer.  If they scaled it back, then theyíd do better but everyone feels like the answer is to try and jam it down peopleís throats instead.

You can talk about the atmosphere all you want.  I donít deny that it is probably fun.  But the bottom line is that it amounts to nothing right now. The majority of clubs in MLS lose money.  What sustains those clubs is revenue sharing from the clubs that do make money, the buy-in fees from new clubs, and revenue generated from the National Team.  That clearly is not sustainable in the long term.

None of the owners own their clubs.  They own a stake in MLS, so the league is geared more towards everyone grouping together than teams fighting it out.  So how do the owners make any money?  Through their stadium deals.  They own the stadium.  Which is how I know the stadium deal will be a huge loser for the tax payers. 










MoxyWOXY

  • Summer Resident
  • Posts: 87
Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2019, 04:08:40 PM »

You did not invade Columbusís pitch.  You were welcomed.  In fact, they desperately need you because they need to sell tickets and have their team seem legit so the team does not get moved to Austin.

...


Columbus is going to move or fold, then you have to start over. 


Austin already got a franchise in a shady MLS deal.

Columbus is not moving to Austin. Perhaps you somehow didn't hear about the "Save the Crew" movement? It got a substantial amount of national attention, for soccer in the US anyway.

A new stadium is going to be built downtown in the Arena District. It's desperately needed for many of the reasons euro already pointed out. Mapfre is a horrible location. Bad part of town and nothing around it. Get in, get out. But a hell of a deal was a hell of a deal I suppose. The land Mapfre sits on is going to be turned into a recreational sports complex.
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Zafer Kaya

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2019, 09:25:13 PM »

I honestly donít think they are ever going to make it into that new stadium, which is already sounding like a disaster.

Butter

  • Suffering from early-onset douchiness
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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2019, 09:59:17 PM »

Watched Atlanta vs. Club America tonight. Entertaining.

Saw on the crawl at the bottom that MLS is announcing a 4th upcoming expansion team, which just supports the Ponzi scheme idea.

What the fuck are you doing, MLS? 
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euro60

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2019, 11:39:48 PM »

Watched the 2nd half of Atlanta-Club America, entertaining indeed.

Butter, MLS is not a Ponzi scheme. MLS is building out to become a 32 team league like all the major leagues. Do you really think that the $200 mill entrance fee that St. Louis will pay, to be divided up by the existing teams, is going to make a big difference in the bottom line of each of those teams? Of course not.

MLS isn't going to crash and burn. It is here to stay.

ZK, you mentioned that "Cincinnati has the fan base to support their team. Many of these other cities donít or wonít. Theyíll drag FC Cincinnati (and the city taxpayers) down with them." That is an utterly baseless statement on so many levels, sorry. Which of those "other cities don' or won't" do you mean? Specifically? And how would that drag down FCC even if it were to happen? And how would that affect Cincy tax payers?

And just a reminder that FCC isn't dragging down the local tax payers. The local/state tax benefits and incentives awarded to FCC for a self-financed $250 mill stadium are no different than, say, Procter & Gamble expanding their Cincinnati presence (which is massive) by $250 mill, for which P&G would get the exact same local/state benefits, or any other company for that matter, which is the point, FCC is just another company investing in the local economy.

This stands of course in stark contrast with the deal that the Bengals and Reds got in the 00's, where the tax payer indeed paid for the new stadiums--terrible all around, as it turned out (in particular for the Bengals stadium). That said, you may or may not remember that this was actually put to the voters of Hamilton County, and passed by 65 percent if I recall correctly. I wasn't allowed to vote back then (I think it was in 1997 or some such), but I made a $1 dollar with my then-girlfriend that the ballot issue would pass, she didn't it would. When it passed she wrote me a $1 check, I still have it to this day (never cashed it). We broke up shortly thereafter (nothing to do with the ballot issue--at least I think LOL).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 11:57:40 PM by euro60 »
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Butter

  • Suffering from early-onset douchiness
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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2019, 07:35:58 AM »

Butter, MLS is not a Ponzi scheme. MLS is building out to become a 32 team league like all the major leagues. Do you really think that the $200 mill entrance fee that St. Louis will pay, to be divided up by the existing teams, is going to make a big difference in the bottom line of each of those teams? Of course not.

The league's salary bill for 2019 is about $260 million.  One entry fee for a team can about cover that (about 80% of it at least) for a single year.  Not sure how that is insignificant.
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Kwyjibo

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2019, 09:56:38 AM »

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Zafer Kaya

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2019, 02:34:28 PM »

Quote
The local/state tax benefits and incentives awarded to FCC for a self-financed $250 mill stadium are no different than, say, Procter & Gamble expanding their Cincinnati presence (which is massive) by $250 mill, for which P&G would get the exact same local/state benefits, or any other company for that matter, which is the point, FCC is just another company investing in the local economy.

I suppose that's a fair point, in a way.  Except I think giving P&G and other corporations subsidies is a horrible idea as well.  So what you're saying to me reads like "This is no more stupid than all those other incredibly stupid things we do!"  That's a poor baseline comparison.

Quote
This stands of course in stark contrast with the deal that the Bengals and Reds got in the 00's, where the tax payer indeed paid for the new stadiums--terrible all around, as it turned out (in particular for the Bengals stadium).

.... and it's less stupid than that even more insanely off-the-charts stupid thing we did that was so stupid people still can't even believe we did it!

Quote
MLS isn't going to crash and burn. It is here to stay.

Oh, but they're not just trying to be here to stay.  Their goal in 2022 is to have 30 teams and be the the top league in the world.   As you have noted, the level of play in MLS is below that of Belgium's top league.  The salary cap for an entire MLS team is $4 million.  Lionel Messi's salary is $192 million.  2022 is less three years from now. Does this not strike you as a tad overly ambitious?

I'm not down on like, soccer overall in the US.  I just kinda feel like MLS... I don't see how it can work the way it is going.  I dunno, most people seem to think they've turned a corner.  Maybe I'm being to pessimistic.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 02:55:57 PM by Zafer Kaya »
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euro60

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2019, 11:06:27 PM »

Providing tax incentives and benefits to companies making big investments is the nature of the game, it goes on everywhere, not just here but around the world. You may not like it a bit that is the way it is. I see it up close in my job (as a corporate lawyer).

I never saw or read the claim you make that MLS is wanting to be the "top league of the world  in 2022". Do you have any backup for that? In any event, that is an insane statement to make. And never gonna happen, obviously.

And yes, you are way too pessimistic about MLS. Would love to host you at an FCC home game so you can take in for yourself what is going on here. Heck, I'll even treat you the pre-game Taste of Belgium beer and food shindig.Heck, that goes for you too, Butter. I've got season tix. Let's do this!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 11:09:49 PM by euro60 »
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures

Zafer Kaya

  • City Elder
  • Posts: 3,656
Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2019, 12:09:36 PM »

Quote
Providing tax incentives and benefits to companies making big investments is the nature of the game, it goes on everywhere, not just here but around the world. You may not like it a bit that is the way it is. I see it up close in my job (as a corporate lawyer).

Yes, crony capitalism happens everywhere, and I remain opposed to it everywhere it happens just like murder, rape, theft and all the other bad shit that unfortunately happens all over the world.

euro60

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Re: FC Cincinnati
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2019, 12:22:35 AM »

ZK, surely you realize that without the tax incentives and benefits for companies investing in communities, the free market system as we know it would come to a grinding halt. Are you saying you want that system to end? Where would that end up? The USSR in the 50-80s? Is that what you would like? (Not that I'm calling you a communist LOL)
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"A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" - Albert Einstein (1901)

The Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra is one of Cincinnati's underappreciated treasures
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